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Old 15th June 2011, 12:10   #256
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Default Re: Partnership with Fiat needs to be critically examined: Tata

My replies in bold

Quote:
Originally Posted by aaggoswami View Post
1) Yes, its Tata which is unhappy. This means that either Fiat is happy or Fiat is not reactive. I suspect that Tata is more interested in technology from Fiat. If Fiat brings in more models, they would also bring in better technology. IMO the Fiat products are quite competitive and not obsolete ( like Indica which was again revitalized after Vista could not make a big mark ). That is what Tata is interested in.
Second reason might be that the dealers are complaining about low volumes.

The reason I see why TATA has started cribbing is, "get max and give less" philosophy with FIAT. As rightly said, FIAT cannot and should not give all the technology transfer as it would dilute the FIAT's USP.

2) I agree with you on this one. They are just not aware of India it seems. The method of selling cars through Tata makes them think that their job is now over, but that far from it.

From what I have read over the forum and the internet, its TATA who is responsible for marketing the FIAT cars. Why is TATA not promoting the existing two products like they do promote Their own cars (read as indica, manza, nano, etc).

Apart from marketing, Fiat needs to have its independent network of A.S & S. centers atleast. The customer of Fiat many times end up thinking as if the company has left India. My friend has Palio ( his family bought that when there was waiting list for Palio ) and he says that many parts are not with TASS, and eventually, Indica parts are installed.

Different parts installed? Need more info.

Fiat needs to rethink what they are upto. The relative latecomers like Hyundai are on a different orbit, and VW, toyota, and the likes who came in real late are actually doing better than Fiat.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ra'ul M View Post
IMO Mr. Tata is unhappy because of the sub standard implementation of the plans put in place by the top level management. I am certain everyone here will agree that Mr. Tata or Sergio Marchionne are aware of the problems in their setup.

Don't make it another FIAT bashing thread
Yep it is not clear as to who is RATAN TATA not happy with, is it his own team or FIAT. This gives a lot of room for unnecessary speculation.

Last edited by nkrishnap : 15th June 2011 at 12:12.
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Old 15th June 2011, 13:21   #257
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Default Re: Partnership with Fiat needs to be critically examined: Tata

It's very clear what Mr.Tata is not happy about. The end result which is due to poor implementation of an idea. The idea was nice to pool the resources and share technologies which Tata lacked and the distribution and sales network and A.S.S which Fiat lacked. Fiat has brought in the technology so the part lacking is S&D and A.S.S. It is very clear that the weak link is not the product but the A.S.S. So Tata should pull up their socks and get into the act. It is their responsibility to market the product which they are failing miserably. So the direction is very clear. Improve your front end else this is doomed
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Old 15th June 2011, 14:44   #258
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Default Re: Partnership with Fiat needs to be critically examined: Tata

Quote:
Originally Posted by arjab View Post
FIAT's problem in the Indian market is after - sales service and not their vehicles... Because the "aam-junta" already knows what Fiat is and the "aam-junta" also knows what is the "weakest" point of Fiat. Correct that and the rest of the jigsaw will fall into place.

Cheers to Fiat , buck up guys !
Very succinctly put and sums up what FIAT should focus in India.

The 2007 agreement between FIAT and Tata is undestandable as the Italian automaker was cash strapped during that time. However, they are in a much better position, so much so that, they have been moderately successful in turning around Chrysler. IMO, its time FIAT goes solo in India and starts investing in aftersales services in the country. I mean, when a company with zero presence in North America has the capability to bring back an American idol to its feet, there is no reason why it cannot become successful in India.
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Old 15th June 2011, 15:11   #259
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Default Re: Partnership with Fiat needs to be critically examined: Tata

Actually Fiat should have taken advantage of the Joint Venture. When Tata were selling their cars, Fiat should have started building his own showroom slowly. They shouldn't have shutdown their old showroom.

I remember, I had visited the Fiat showroom Jay-Vijay in Pune, they were very eager in selling the car, promptly the test drive were arranged, as well the followup calls were made. Linea is still the best sedan is available in India but due to poor marketing and sales they are not able to sell it the way it deserve.

Fiat's future plan of launching the small car is ridiculous. Tata will take advantage of the new 2 cylinder diesel engine from Fiat and they will put it in Nano and Fiat's small car will again struggle to sell.

Instead of launching the new small car, Fiat should invest in manufacturing 1.6 liter diesel engine locally. Which will compete the Vento and Fluidic.

Fiat should have tied-up with Mahindra, because Mahindra does not have product to compete with Fiat. Tata has lined-up products which are competitors to Fiat cars, why would Tata will promote the competitor product.
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Old 15th June 2011, 15:44   #260
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Default Re: Partnership with Fiat needs to be critically examined: Tata

Quote:
Originally Posted by pawan_pullarwar View Post
Fiat should have tied-up with Mahindra, because Mahindra does not have product to compete with Fiat.
That probably did not work out because Mahindra and Renault were already in serious talks by the time Fiat decided to look for an Indian partner. IIRC, Mahindra and Renault joined hands in 2005 and Tata-Fiat JV came out at least a year later.

Anyway, if Mr. Tata is complaining about Fiat products not selling well, the problem does not lie with Fiat. It lies with Tata Motors. It is the responsibility of Tata Motors to sell and support Fiat cars! I guess the terms of JV clearly state that (at least, from what I have read all these years). Shouldn't we be bashing Tata for this, rather than Fiat?
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Old 15th June 2011, 15:58   #261
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Thumbs up Re: Partnership with Fiat needs to be critically examined: Tata

TATA is also pushing for lowering import duties on vehicles and components against the current trend of manufacturers not wanting the govt to reduce the rates. According to Mr Ratan Tata apart from TATA and M&m, all other companies are just assembling foreign brands.


Cut import duties on automobiles, components:Tata - The Economic Times
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Old 15th June 2011, 16:45   #262
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Default Re: Tata power fails to push Fiat sales

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoolFire View Post
Ultimately they will be forced to make a solitary move, which they ought to have done way back.
Do you think Fiat didn't think about continuing alone, before tying up with Tata? Fact is, they had negligible sales across the country and dealers were left twiddling their thumbs.

Do you think a line of entrepreneurs will line up at Fiat's door steps when it announces independent dealerships? No ways, especially not after so many went out of business only a couple of years back!! Remember, it costs the same $$$$ to set up a dealership for Fiat or for VW (just as an example). If you were a businessman, would you choose a repeatedly failing brand that sells 2,000 cars p.a. after 14 years in the country, or one that does 7,500 cars p.a. in only a year of introducing its sub 10-lakh rupee cars? As of today, VW, Hyundai & Toyota are aggressively expanding their dealership presence.

It makes the most sense for Fiat to work out its existing relationship with Tata.
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Old 15th June 2011, 17:05   #263
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Default Re: Tata power fails to push Fiat sales

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
If you were a businessman, would you choose a repeatedly failing brand that sells 2,000 cars p.a. after 14 years in the country, or one that does 7,500 cars p.a. in only a year of introducing its sub 10-lakh rupee cars?
I think you meant p.m (per month) and not p.a.?
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Old 15th June 2011, 17:09   #264
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Default Re: Tata power fails to push Fiat sales

Well, I had a slightly different experience with Tata showroom at Varanasi. We wanted to buy Indigo CS and were inquiring for that. However, the sales representative was trying hard to convince us for Fiat Palio.
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Old 15th June 2011, 18:00   #265
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Default Re: Tata power fails to push Fiat sales

I don't think Fiat is taking the Indian market as seriously as it needs to. They seem to be more focussed on Brazil and China. After the India spec small car in 2012, there is no other major launch till 2014, other than some changes to the Punto & Linea.

No Chrysler models have been planned for India as of now, while there are plans to launch in Brazil and China.

They have the technology backing to launch truly competitive products in India, for eg - the 1.6 MJD Linea, but already low capacity utilisation at Ranjangaon is making them think twice. I remember reading somewhere that Fiat had plans of producing the 1.6 and 1.9 MJD's at Ranjangaon - for domestic and export markets, but with the sales going the way they have, looks like they are having a re-look at their plans.

Tata should be happy, altleast with the way things have gone domestically, other than the big problem of under utilisation of the Ranjangaon plant. Tata had no engine development going on and their Vista and Manza would have taken a major hit in the market if they were launched with TML's Dicor engines.

We all love Fiat cars for the wonderful driving experience, but it look like we have to wait as Brazil and China look more important to them right now!

Last edited by fiat_tarun : 15th June 2011 at 18:04.
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Old 15th June 2011, 18:34   #266
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Default Re: Partnership with Fiat needs to be critically examined: Tata

Quote:
Originally Posted by arjab View Post
FIAT's problem in the Indian market is after - sales service and not their vehicles.
Anyone who buys a Punto, Palio, Linea speak well about the products, but sadly not about the service.
The irony is that FIAT knows this only too well but for some strange reason they will just not set things right.
.
.
.
The FIAT brand is perhaps the strongest brand in terms of brand recognition in India, straddling years of indian automotive history. The time has come to overhaul it completely and take some hard - nosed, courageous, strategically correct decisions. Opening brand stores with coffee shops, driving across India in Ferrari's - these things are not required. Because the "aam-junta" already knows what Fiat is and the "aam-junta" also knows what is the "weakest" point of Fiat. Correct that and the rest of the jigsaw will fall into place.

Cheers to Fiat , buck up guys !
Well said Arjab, you've hit the nail on the head

I've been a Palio MJD owner for the last 7 months and I've thoroughly enjoyed the Car.

I would like to add a couple of points to what you've said.

1) Fiat needs to reduce the spare prices for Palio. For e.g.- The still under limited production Palio MJD's Fuel filter costs Rs.1700 + and an ORVM costs Rs.2700/- and that's even more expensive than some higher segment Car's spares. I feel that this is pure injustice to people who plonked their hard earned money on a Palio shunning a Swift or a Getz!

2) Fiat's biggest Brand ambassadors are existing Fiat owners. There are many such instances of Palio owners upgrading to Punto/Linea on T-bhp as well as PUG. Fiat needs to ensure that they do their best to support them. Currently they are doing their best to alienate them by not providing spares on time or selling expensive spares only through TASS etc. Sometimes as a hardcore Fiat supporter you feel that you are fighting a losing battle with no support or interest from Fiat to improve their image & sales. And coupled with that the step motherly treatment meted out to a sizable number of Palio owners means that Fiat is losing loyal customers and their most effective brand ambassadors.

All said and done my next Car would still be a Linea 1.6 MJD

Hope someone from Fiat is reading this.

Last edited by aah78 : 15th June 2011 at 19:53. Reason: Please limit smileys to 2/post. Large quote eidted.
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Old 15th June 2011, 19:09   #267
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Default Re: Tata power fails to push Fiat sales

Unless the Fiat sale is going to budge any forward from the current 2K per month, it does not make business sense to invest huge amounts of money in the market. 2K units per month !! that is close to 1-2% of the total car business in India. (correct me if I am wrong)

As fiat_tarun said no Chrysler for now for India. Their India center is currently developing and testing ECU and other electronics for models elsewhere in the world. China seems to be the prime focus for now.

Fiat feels like they are unsure of their future as well as the potential of India and this does not inspire confidence in the buyers either.
What they could do (what I would love to see)
1. Bring out a/two superstar model (like figo for ford, vento/polo for VW) that gives volumes. These volumes will allow them to set up independent dealer network.

2. And by the way it is not difficult to set up a dealer network if you can give either volumes or bigger share of profits (look at Renault; they could manage it. So could Nissan)
I guess the pre requisite for that would be highly reliable (need not be ultra reliable) cars which is quite not the case. I am not saying Fiat cars are bad or unreliable but the perception is such. Blame it on the service or the tata vendors but perception needs to be set straight.

A long committed stand in India is required for cars to sell in India. lets hope India finds its way into Fiat's important markets radar soon or comes out with a hell of an idea.
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Old 15th June 2011, 19:25   #268
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Default Re: Tata power fails to push Fiat sales

I feel Mr.Tata has a point here. The Fiat company is totally laggard about India and Tata is made to shoulder the floor space and man power for weak selling fiat cars. I don't care if it's because of marketing or poor A.S.S the fact is, Fiat cars sell less, very very less. So Tata is right in feeling aggreived about this JV and on soley taking the burden of selling Fiat cars all over India when they are not serious.

Let's not talk about how Tata is benefitting, because if they buy the engine and spares they pay for it like any other auto company, so that's not the issue here.
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Old 15th June 2011, 20:00   #269
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Default Re: Tata power fails to push Fiat sales

When Ratan Tata says this JV needs to be critically examined, i hope he is not just blaming Fiat here. Because for a successful JV, both partners need to work together at all levels, particularly the showrooms and the service stations.
I personally think that Fiat needs to improve their A.S.S. It's high time Fiat sets up dedicated service stations. Currently not all Tata service stations service Fiat cars.


Quote:
Originally Posted by zaks View Post
I feel Mr.Tata has a point here. The Fiat company is totally laggard about India and Tata is made to shoulder the floor space and man power for weak selling fiat cars. I don't care if it's because of marketing or poor A.S.S the fact is, Fiat cars sell less, very very less. So Tata is right in feeling aggreived about this JV and on soley taking the burden of selling Fiat cars all over India when they are not serious.
As per the JV Tata is responsible for sales, marketing and service of Fiat cars. Also 50% of revenues go to Tata (correct me if i am wrong here). So both partners are equally responsible for low sales.

Last edited by SilentEngine : 15th June 2011 at 20:05.
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Old 15th June 2011, 23:55   #270
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Default Re: Tata power fails to push Fiat sales

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Originally Posted by SilentEngine View Post
When Ratan Tata says this JV needs to be critically examined, i hope he is not just blaming Fiat here. Because for a successful JV, both partners need to work together at all levels, particularly the showrooms and the service stations.
I personally think that Fiat needs to improve their A.S.S. It's high time Fiat sets up dedicated service stations. Currently not all Tata service stations service Fiat cars.
One of the main reasons for apprehension for prospective Fiat buyers, like me.

The newly opened TATA dealer's showroom in our city has the entire lineup of TATA cars readily available for TD and purchase, but when I enquired about the Punto, they said they have to bring over one of the Puntos from their state capital's showroom for me to TD!

Needless to say, I declined and visited Raipur soon after and TDed it there itself.

Second query - Can they provide the servicing to Punto if I purchased it?

Their response - long silence, after which they (reluctantly) said I had to drive it all the way to the capital to get it serviced, because they were not planning to service any Fiat cars anytime soon!

Okay, Punto's service intervals are pretty far-out and easy to maintain, but to travel 300 kms once a year to get the car serviced is pretty tough. Not to mention the hassles for a govt. service guy like me. It could be managed for a while, but not for the long run.

Guess if I finally decide on the Punto, I have to wait till the TATA dealer here assures me that it will be serviced along with the other TATA/Fiat cars.

Could be a pretty long wait.
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