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Old 22nd July 2010, 02:00   #31
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Originally Posted by abhibh View Post
LMAO there are a lot of reasons why TATA can't sell FIAT cars even if they want to

1. TATA wants to sell their VISTA
2. FIAT image in India
3. Pricing factor. Since the entry of Ford Figo everything looks overpriced. IMHO Punto Active @5.16 lacs ex showroom doesn't makes any sense. It should not cost more than 4.5 lacs
In order to correct the image, Fiat had to tie-up with Tata. They wouldn't have sold half as may cars they have had they decided to have a go at it independently. Yes, Tata does want to sell the Vista, but it competes at a different price-point. I say that the product placement to be quite perfect for the Tata-Fiat duo.
a.Vista
b.Punto
c.Manza
d.Linea

I find the prices you've quoted as being completely incorrect. The ex-showroom price of the Active doesn't cross 4.5 lakhs anywhere in India (Mumbai is 4.4, Bangalore is 4.35).
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Old 22nd July 2010, 11:00   #32
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Originally Posted by amitk26
Do they pay same commission as Tata so that dealer recommend?
Now this is an interesting point. Unless FIAT is paying lesser commission to dealer, or there are unofficial guidelines from Tatas to refrain from promoting FIAT, why would a dealer not promote FIAT vehicles?

In all probability, considering premium pricing of FIAT over Tata, a dealer earns more from selling FIAT.

I refrain from my earlier point of having separate sales person for FIAT. This will only increase the competition within showroom.

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Originally Posted by theMAG
I had heard somewhere that Fiat was planning to go the independent way
Right now, may not be a wise decision. Imagine the time that will be required to develop equally widespread network.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinaydas
The Tata alliance will work only in the short term. If fiat needs to get things right they need to take matters into their own hands and step away from Tata so that they can properly establish themselves.
+1
But in a JV, they may not be in a position to develop dealership network without letting Tatas know. And once Tata knows what FIAT is up to, I don't know what kind of complications may arise.

This can only be done using a Guerrilla approach (for dealer development and not marketing).

Could anyone explain the FIAT quality of sales and service during Palio and Uno era. Before this JV.
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Old 22nd July 2010, 11:29   #33
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From the beginning it was CLEAR that TATA and FIAT are going to have competing products and they gotta sell them in the same showrooms.

Someone in FIAT should have had the brains to position their products with an USP that is not available in competing TATA products.

FIATS look smashing in comparison to the TATAs. Good start. BUT things COULD have been so different had FIAT positioned their cars as the more stylish, better finished, better tuned, relatively higher quality alternatives to the TATAs for a little high premium.

From what I read here ONLY the opposites are happening. TATA is getting better and better with fit/finish and quality. It was horrible to see the fit and finish in the 90BHP Punto Test Drive thread. Again, from the same thread we see that the tuning is not proper.

So FIAT better get it's house in order. No use blaming the tie up with TATA.
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Old 22nd July 2010, 12:51   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amartya View Post
In order to correct the image, Fiat had to tie-up with Tata. They wouldn't have sold half as may cars they have had they decided to have a go at it independently. Yes, Tata does want to sell the Vista, but it competes at a different price-point. I say that the product placement to be quite perfect for the Tata-Fiat duo.
a.Vista
b.Punto
c.Manza
d.Linea

I find the prices you've quoted as being completely incorrect. The ex-showroom price of the Active doesn't cross 4.5 lakhs anywhere in India (Mumbai is 4.4, Bangalore is 4.35).
I was talking about the MJD version. People hardly buy 1.2 Active Punto, atleast in Punjab.
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Old 22nd July 2010, 13:14   #35
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Originally Posted by ghodlur View Post
I remember when I was planning for a sedan in the late 2009 and wanted to enquire about the Linea. Had visited a TATA Showroom in Thane, Wagle Estate. There was least effort by the salesman to show me the Linea, rather they were interested in promoting the newly launched Manza. Inspite of my waiting for 1/2 hr for Linea TD, I was not given one. Later again after few day when I visited the showroom for Manza TD, I was immeiately attended by Salesmen.
The fortune motors at Thane is a complete rip off and they put off potential and existing customers alike. My personal experience even as an existing customer of an Indigo and a prospect of a Linea has not been very positive at Fortune motors.

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Old 22nd July 2010, 13:56   #36
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Regarding the questions about tata brand i just want to say that i liked the punto but never would have purchased if tata was not servicing the car.So the point is i bought the punto but i trust the tatas as they are the best ethical company of India.They maybe not able to offer what others are offering but they are learning and improving also someday i just hope we see bond driving an indica.
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Old 22nd July 2010, 14:22   #37
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Whatever FIAT is selling today is because of TATA. As others said its FIAT who failed to utilize TATA's wide network. Other hand TATA is improving very fast, drastic change happened with Vista and Manza launches. What I feel is with ARIA launch TATA will take game to next level.

It was sad to see the interior fit and finish in 90HP punto.
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Old 22nd July 2010, 15:11   #38
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From my personal experience with the TATA/FIAT dealer in Mumbai. The A** has improved in leaps and bounds over the past 2 years not only with respect to taking care of the customers wrt mannerism but also wrt the technical know how of the products that they sell.

Had it not been for TATA , It would have been very difficult for FIAT to enter the Indian market , let alone the sales figures. As Amartya rightly said the product line up of the TATA FIAT JV is very smart. Vista-Punto-Manza-Linea. Same engines different cars and brands.

Honestly I dont see a person interested in a TATA going for a FIAT and vice versa unless its a very definitive cost based decision. From what Mr. Rajeev Kapoor has said, the FIAT sales might not be thru the roof but they are definitely meeting their sales target of 25 k cars a year.

FIAT will have to move out and start off independantly for sure but I dont see that happening atleast in the next couple of years.
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Old 22nd July 2010, 16:13   #39
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IMO, folks at Tata perhaps are not used to handling such cars? Their benchmarking is pretty much Indica for anything. I was giving my 3+ year old Adventure for servicing. While making the job card, the chap asked me if I need to check anything else/ any problems etc? I said, none. He was like, what?! you dont have any issues like noise, alignment, engine vibrations, low FE, nothing? Nothing? At all?? :-)
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Old 22nd July 2010, 16:50   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Latheesh View Post
Whatever FIAT is selling today is because of TATA. As others said its FIAT who failed to utilize TATA's wide network.
Totally agree. I wouldn't have gone for the Punto blindly had the dealer/A-S-S been TVS (in Trivandrum); my previous car was an Indica and to tell you the truth I never experienced a bad incident from any of the TATA service centers in my 6 years of ownership. As it turned out, I simply exchanged the car in to the very same dealership from where I bought it - for a Punto.

I strongly suggest the concerned parties to change the title of this thread to You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink so that Fiat will get what it deserves. IMHO, that's what TATA is doing.

Last edited by sandeepmdas : 22nd July 2010 at 16:53.
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Old 22nd July 2010, 17:31   #41
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Question

I have written something along similar lines on some other thread, but I will repeat this again because we are still debating this non-issue(IMO).

Why should Fiat be worried when they are making money on some of the most popular cars sold in India ?. Tata and Fiat have 50:50 JV, so BOTH Fiat and Tata profit from the Fiat vehicle sales. And because Indica Quadrajet is also produced at that plant, BOTH Fiat and Tata profit from Indica's sales.

So it is rather stupid to :- 1) blame either of two companies to intentionally discourage people from buying Fiat vehicle, 2) Include just Fiat vehicle sales to gauge how well Fiat is doing, when Indica is also manufactured by that JV.

Also Fiat not only makes money from Indica+Indigo+Punto+Linea, they also make money from all the cars that use their JTD engine. Tata, GM, Suzuki, Opel, Ford, Cadillac, Saab, Vauxhall and others already sell lots of vehicles using JTD engine. If Fiat were to get aggressive in marketing their car, that would not only cost lots of money but it would probably cannibalize sales of other cars using JTD engine, this may even provoke other companies to dump JTD engine. So why would Fiat want that ?

Why should Fiat change their current business model from the current one in which they make money from the sales of not only their own cars but also vehicles from Tata-GM-Suzuki-Opel-Ford-Cadillac-Saab-Vauxhall and other companies, to a business model in which they have spend aggressively on marketing, to revive their sales & service network and in return they get to make money only from the sales of their own cars.

Fiat and Samsung have a similar business model, for example most mobile phone manufacturers rely on Samsung for major parts such as the Screen, Processor, Memory, Wireless chips etc. Like Fiat in engines, Samsung is currently the leader in all the aforementioned parts.

So tell me why their own phones don't sell that well ? And why should they be worried about that when they (like Fiat) are doing very well financially.

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Old 22nd July 2010, 18:19   #42
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Fiat and Tata sell products in the same segment. I don't think price points matter too much. It's what you get that matters. Because i have a budget of 7.5 laks it doesn't mean that i will not look at something at 5.5 if i can get 95% of the package at that price. That's where FIAT screwed up according to me. For the aam junta the space and the FE is what is important. If he feels that he can get better space and the same engine at 70% of the cost he would obviously go for it. The FIAT-TATA partnership was a total disaster for FIAT in my opinion(atleast for car sales). The biggest losers in this deal were the poor FIAT customers. The firm will be ok because of the engines they sell.

Last edited by vishnurp99 : 22nd July 2010 at 18:22.
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Old 22nd July 2010, 18:25   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vinaydas View Post
Fiats are generally given "step motherly" treatment by The Tatas.
Service centers : There are Many Tata service centers in Bangalore But only 2-3 of them actually service fiats.(Manipal Motors near Lumbini gardens used to service my fiat but all of a sudden they stopped. Obviously it there are higher powers at play here more than the workshop capability).
No higher power , few months back I got to know from a service manager of another dealer that Manipal had 4 carores of Loss in 08-09, They were most corrupt of the lot , From what I have heard from service manager services were not doen properly just oil change and wash and later they have to deal with the vehicles which came dissatisfied from Manipal. All these led to downfall and it is not surprising that they made loss in 2008-2009 when other TML dealers and service stations in same city still made profit.



Quote:
Originally Posted by anmol2k4 View Post
Fiat and Samsung have a similar business model, for example most mobile phone manufacturers rely on Samsung for major parts such as the Screen, Processor, Memory, Wireless chips etc. Like Fiat in engines, Samsung is currently the leader in all the aforementioned parts.

So tell me why their own phones don't sell that well ?
OFF TOPIC >

Well about Samsung mobiles it does sell well, No 2 worldwide and in India and overtook Nokia in Europe in feature phone segment in Q2010

Any way Samsung has another strategy all together , The Samsung mobile division is never the first or sole customer of semiconductor products BU.
Every BU needs to find it's own customers . The strategy is adopted to make sure that one BU is not dependent on sale to other BU and whole company should not come down if there is a slowdown in one business.

Example SP5C100 was processor of iPhone 3GS but Samsung did not introduce this in any product line and Sucessor SP5C110 is used in Galaxy-S and bada. Similarly Apple A4 is based on Some IPs but equivelent will not be used internally for some time. Also mobile division use 3ed party SoC in many flagship products to make sure it does not go down if Semiconductor unit is down.

This is to avoid Motorola like situation.
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Old 22nd July 2010, 19:05   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vishnurp99 View Post
Fiat and Tata sell products in the same segment. I don't think price points matter too much. It's what you get that matters. Because i have a budget of 7.5 laks it doesn't mean that i will not look at something at 5.5 if i can get 95% of the package at that price. That's where FIAT screwed up according to me. For the aam junta the space and the FE is what is important. If he feels that he can get better space and the same engine at 70% of the cost he would obviously go for it. The FIAT-TATA partnership was a total disaster for FIAT in my opinion(atleast for car sales). The biggest losers in this deal were the poor FIAT customers. The firm will be ok because of the engines they sell.
How is Fiat screwed up ? if you would decide not to buy one vehicle manufactured by that JV(Punto/Linea) and instead would opt for other vehicle also manufactured by the same JV(Vista/Manza Quadrajet)

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Originally Posted by amitk26 View Post
Well about Samsung mobiles it does sell well, No 2 worldwide and in India and overtook Nokia in Europe in feature phone segment in Q2010
Obviously I am not doing enough research, thanks you sir for exposing my ignorance.

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Originally Posted by amitk26 View Post
Any way Samsung has another strategy all together , The Samsung mobile division is never the first or sole customer of semiconductor products BU.
Every BU needs to find it's own customers . The strategy is adopted to make sure that one BU is not dependent on sale to other BU and whole company should not come down if there is a slowdown in one business.

Example SP5C100 was processor of iPhone 3GS but Samsung did not introduce this in any product line and Sucessor SP5C110 is used in Galaxy-S and bada. Similarly Apple A4 is based on Some IPs but equivelent will not be used internally for some time. Also mobile division use 3ed party SoC in many flagship products to make sure it does not go down if Semiconductor unit is down.
Though I won't pretend that I know too much on this topic, but from what I can remember Apple Intel Samsung Nokia etc license the right to use ARM architecture design from ARM inc. And almost all make some modifications to the design. Later on they ask likes of TSMC Samsung etc to fabricate those designs. So Samsungs TSMC cannot use processors designed by the likes of Nokia Apple etc unless they have license to do so from the owners of IP.

The point I was trying to make was that Samsung is currently leader and have edge over almost every other mobile phone company (Nokia Apple RIM etc) in various important parts such as Screens, Processors, Wireless Chips, Memmory, SSDs etc and despite that they aren't number 1 by sales of their own sets.

Regarding use of 3rd party SoC, that is very interesting information. But noob in me requires some more details, do they buy SoC fabricated by others like TSMC or do they license from likes of Qualcomm Marvell etc and fabricate in house. If they do buy chips manufactured by other then it is probably because either they don't expertise in that particular process or don't have spare cpaacity.

Anyways now that Samsung is no 2, I agree it isn't a very good example.

Last edited by anmol2k4 : 22nd July 2010 at 19:13.
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Old 22nd July 2010, 19:30   #45
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Readers below passage may look OT but highlighting just to compare business strategy of FIAT and SEC.

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Originally Posted by anmol2k4 View Post
Though I won't pretend that I know too much on this topic, but from what I can remember Apple Intel Samsung Nokia etc license the right to use ARM architecture design from ARM inc. And almost all make some modifications to the design. Later on they ask likes of TSMC Samsung etc to fabricate those designs. So Samsungs TSMC cannot use processors designed by the likes of Nokia Apple etc unless they have license to do so from the owners of IP.
ARM just provides Core IP ( like ARM9, ARM11, Cortex A8 e,A9 etc) a SoC is lot more then Core , ARM is a very lean and mean comp. AFAIK few years back they just had 2000 engineers world wide but virtual monopoly in core business for embedded SoC ( MIPS is a distant no.2)

example same ARM core can be used in a base-band processor where you will need DSPs for modem functionality or in AP side where you need GPUs , Codecs ,Display Controllers etc. The design of SoC is owned by respective companies and the IP of what SoC does lies with SoC maker.

Samsung has many business one of them is to design the SoC and sell it where it competes with TI , Marvel, QC etc. so Apple was one client which purchased SC6400 for original iPhoen and S5C100 for iPhone 3GS form Samsung semiconductor. BU here the IP is of Samsung for the processor ( using IP from ARM for Core of-course)

Apple for A4 have taken some base IP from Samsung added their own design for few parts and got it fabricated from Samsung.

Nokia does not design the AP chips in-house iMHO and till now uses TI OMAP series processors.

Samsung Mobile BU is one of the many customers of Semiconductor BU but they are free to choose any chip vendor in the world which suits best to them so almost every other semiconductor manufacturer sells to Samsung for one or other product. Even though Samsung in no 1 in flash , TFT LCD and RAM it is not necessary that a product should use them design team is free to cherry pick best of the lot ( either performance wise for high end or cost wise )

Quote:
Originally Posted by anmol2k4 View Post
The point I was trying to make was that Samsung is currently leader and have edge over almost every other mobile phone company (Nokia Apple RIM etc) in various important parts such as Screens, Processors, Wireless Chips, Memmory, SSDs etc and despite that they aren't number 1 by sales of their own sets.
Regarding use of 3rd party SoC, that is very interesting information. But noob in me requires some more details, do they buy SoC fabricated by others like TSMC or do they license from likes of Qualcomm Marvell etc and fabricate in house. If they do buy chips manufactured by other then it is probably because either they don't expertise in that particular process or don't have spare capacity.

Anyways now that Samsung is no 2, I agree it isn't a very good example.
True , but fabrication is one of the many business but not the only business,

I was pointing just at the business strategy which is very unique of open internal comptetion so no business unit takes it's bread and butter for granted and tries to find as many external customers as possible. Following are advantages

1. Risk hedging
2. Best cost / performance /time to market so around 100 Billion $ in sales and 12 Billion $ in profit last year.

negatives

1. lot of chaos and repetitive effort in internal competition.
2. Single company strategy and focus like Apple is difficult to emerge.
3. Customers don't see necessarily as hi tech comp and think as yet another cellphone/TV maker.

Disclaimer I am not trained business analyst so my views can be infentile.

IF Fiat is also doing it then they must be making a lot of moolah but very less visibility like Samsung or Fujutsu of Japan.

Last edited by amitk26 : 22nd July 2010 at 19:35.
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