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Old 27th September 2010, 17:52   #391
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Originally Posted by CPH View Post
I very much doubt that the gearbox is the same. The normally aspirated FIRE boxes are rated at 150Nm torque and are often enough shreded on cars reaching not even 100Nm.
What if they are using present MJD's gearbox in the T-jet? Similar levels of torque, is it possible?
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Old 27th September 2010, 19:05   #392
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NOT at all ! Infact , its the factors like gearing , kerb weight , are of great importance when the difference in output of two cars is meagre 2-4 Bhp
Real world or not-real world, power curve is the only factor that matters (remember that power is directly proportional to product of rpm and torque).

But for real-world, it is not even the entire power curve that matters, it is the power that you get at the rpm-range you usually drive in. Then divide the power at each point by the weight (kerb weight plus roughly 150 kg for two people).

For the drag race, it is the entire power curve that matters. What it means is that if we take a power curve, roughly mark the power readings (points) at every 250 rpm increments and divide by the number of points entire rev-range (1000 rpm to max-power-rpm should be good enough). Divide the result by the sum of kerb weight and 150 (for about two people). This should give an average power of the car per weight.

Gearing will hardly makes difference, unless it is impractically tall. What I meant is that if it is too short, it may accelerate quick, but rev will go out of range before speed gains anything significant, thereby forcing an upshift. At the same time, this will mean that the 5th gear may end up too short that it is not suitable for a highway driving.

If you are asking this question in comparison to ANHC, i-vtec build up more power after 3500 rpm. If you draw Linea t-jet and ANHC -vtech power curves on the save graph, Linea will have much higher power curve in the starting and then flat out after about 2500 rpm while ANHC will start climbing and will probably catch up with the t-jet curve, may be at around 6000 rpm. So, in real world, t-jet is much better engine than the i-vtec. I'm also pretty sure that average power will also be higher in t-jet.

However what will give advantage to ANHC in a drag race will be its light weight and skinny tyres.

I think, it is high time manufacturers mention some sort of indicators in the power curve in the specs. This peak torque and peak power hardly means anything in a non-linear power delivery.
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Old 27th September 2010, 19:59   #393
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Reading through all the stuff about this car, I am super excited. This seems to be the best car in the segment by a distance -
  • Only car to have a turbo petrol engine with 200 Nm of torque
  • Only car with all discs
  • Only car with leather seats
  • Only car with 205 section tires with 16" wheels
  • Whole host of features like Blue and Me, etc etc
  • Best ride and handling

Still, it will be hard for Fiat to sell large numbers of this car because of -
  • Brand image - biggest hurdle and not difficult to change overnight
  • Niggling issues
  • A.S.S.

If Fiat can improve upon the above 3 factors, this could be the segment benchmark! But it will take time. Hope for the best!

But it is a very tempting proposition in spite of the concerns.
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Old 27th September 2010, 20:29   #394
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Originally Posted by hotpursuit View Post
Going by the reviews, this is an fantastic product from Fiat. But have they done enough? I don't think so. If they are planning on launching this on October (even though as mentioned a soft launch in Mumbai, Pune etc.) where are the teasers? Where are the adverts?

The responsibility of marketing rests entirely with Tata. Blame should go to Tata not Fiat. Although I dont know if Fiat has a say in it.



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Originally Posted by deepakhon View Post
What if they are using present MJD's gearbox in the T-jet? Similar levels of torque, is it possible?
Both MJD And the FIRE engines in India use the same gearbox i.e., C510, albeit different gear ratios.
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Old 27th September 2010, 20:54   #395
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Agree to the above thoughts that the new Linea may not not really run into Honda City territory. For me Honda's main threat will be always Toyota or the Koreans. But kudos to Fiat for finally acknowledging the existence of petrolheads in India!
Agree that they may not reach Honda in terms of sales with the current levels of publicity and the history of bad service, although current service is comparable to that provided by others. With so much negative hear say rumors still flying around, it will be a slow a painful climb up in terms of sales for Fiat. The key here is right publicity and persistence. Had the T-Jet been launched by Honda, this would have easily sold 10,000 units per month.

Actually they had the Palio 1.6GTX long time back for the petrol heads but were unlucky enough to find only a few. May be because of the service levels during those times.

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Originally Posted by hotpursuit View Post
where are the teasers? Where are the adverts?
Absolutely! Only Fiat knows what they are trying to do by having no ads at all. As if they are paying for the ads by borrowing money from Tata. During old times, having less ads gave the brand a premium feel. Now with even the luxury brands like Mercedes, BMW, Audi etc beating their drums out loud, I think it is high time Fiat gave a thought to introducing some innovative ads.

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Originally Posted by v.anand View Post
It was mentioned in the NDTV C&B show that the gear box is the same as the existing one, which traces back to Palio IIRC. Other than this detail, the car seems to be terrific in all other aspects. Interior improvement is one fantastic move from Fiat, its USP is even the ANHC and Vento don't come in leather seats and soft touch plastic materials. Pricing is the key now, hope its not more than the diesel E-pack.
To add to that, it has hydraulic power steering, widest tyres, blue&me, cheapest spare part costs and a list of features which is not present even in cars of higher segment.

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Originally Posted by MihirC View Post
Guys I just have a lay man question, TJet falls short of the ANHC by approximately 1-2 bhps, now do 1-2 bhps actually make a difference in the real world driving?
It won't make a difference in real life driving conditions as peak power output is reached towards the top of the rpm band which one seldom reaches unless driving on top speed on the highways. As Opendro rightly said, it is the power to rpm curve and the torque to rpm curve that matters.

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Originally Posted by hotpursuit View Post
In terms of driving package, Fiat should be much better especially with added power and the tsunami of torque at low rpms, as ride and handling wise i think everyone should agree that Linea was always better than ANHC.

But at the end of the day, its all on the perception. As mentioned before, if anyone ask a 3rd person the chances that he/she suggesting Fiat is quite minuscule. Being an owner of two Fiat Cars (Palio 1.9D and Linea Emotion), I've heard the questions a million times, as to Why Fiat?? And Frankly, I don't think Launching a superior product in itself is not sufficient for Fiat. Imagine if this had come from a Maruti Suzuki stable. It would have sold like hot cakes.
+! to that. Having used the MJD linea for around two years now, I can say that the torque definitely makes a huge difference in 'in-gear-acceleration' as I have experienced in city traffic conditions where peak power don't matter but the torque figure does. So with the T-Jet having similar torque figures, it should be one hell of a car to drive both in the city and on the highways.

But as you said, if one were to go by word of mouth opinion, chances of Fiat being recommended are slim. And unfortunately from what I have seen, a majority of the people take hear say rumors as gospel, don't bother to find things out first hand whether what they heard is correct or not. I for one didn't do that and am glad to this day that I didn't, because every morning I see my Linea, it puts a smile on my face and a sense of warmth in my heart.

Last edited by UKR : 27th September 2010 at 21:00.
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Old 27th September 2010, 22:25   #396
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It just goes to show how much impact word of mouth has on a brand.Fiat seems to have both extremes when it comes to owner reviews very good and also very bad.But a majority of consumers fall under the "fill it shut it forget it" band and want a fuss free owner.And it is this huge segment Fiat misses out.
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Old 27th September 2010, 23:20   #397
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To me Fiat has missed the trick in India right from the beginning. Its mainly due to the bad choice of engines coupled with blunders in brand positioning and sales and service. Linea should have been launched with a bigger diesel engine right from the start and Punto with the 90 Bhp engine. Linea with a 1.6 MJD starting at 9 lakhs would have worked wonders for Fiat than to suffer with poor power to weight issues. Fiat should have positioned it with the likes of Corolla, Octavia etc than with smaller sedans like D'zire, Verna, Fiesta etc.
Although T-Jet is a step in the right direction, we will have to keep our fingers crossed as to how much it will help Fiat. Also I would love to own a Fiat in the near future.
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Old 28th September 2010, 00:10   #398
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Originally Posted by avishar View Post
It just goes to show how much impact word of mouth has on a brand.Fiat seems to have both extremes when it comes to owner reviews very good and also very bad.But a majority of consumers fall under the "fill it shut it forget it" band and want a fuss free owner.And it is this huge segment Fiat misses out.
Well said Avishkar. One thing however, is noteworthy that Fiat is listening to customer feedback. The improvements in interiors, engine upgrades etc., not to mention the 'no-compromise' on sheet metal quality, wheels & tyres, suspension & features are indicators of the fact that Fiat is here for serious business.

I have heard from sources that Fiat is going to revamp their customer experience & are also looking at having independent sales outlets in select cities.

T-Jet should be the game changer here. Hope they continue to get exciting products & also hope that Indian janta realise that they truly make good cars.
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Old 28th September 2010, 00:35   #399
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Originally Posted by revmaxx View Post
To me Fiat has missed the trick in India right from the beginning. Its mainly due to the bad choice of engines coupled with blunders in brand positioning and sales and service. Linea should have been launched with a bigger diesel engine right from the start and Punto with the 90 Bhp engine. Linea with a 1.6 MJD starting at 9 lakhs would have worked wonders for Fiat than to suffer with poor power to weight issues. Fiat should have positioned it with the likes of Corolla, Octavia etc than with smaller sedans like D'zire, Verna, Fiesta etc.
Although T-Jet is a step in the right direction, we will have to keep our fingers crossed as to how much it will help Fiat. Also I would love to own a Fiat in the near future.
I dont quite agree with the proposition that Fiat should have launched their new cars with bigger engines and a bigger price tag. If Linea had been positioned against Civic then it wouldn't have sold even half of what it has been selling or sold till now. Fiat knew that if it were to have a crack at India then it'd best stay away from the likes of Honda and Toyota. And they did manage that and priced it below ANHC, which is anyway over priced. Unfortunately this building of Linea to a cost resulted in some iffy parts and that has hurt the the car the most. I feel (and I'm no fortune teller, just my thoughts) if Fiat had put in a little more quality stuff and charged a little more than it would have done better. As far as bigger engines are concerned then I would say that it would have been great if Fiat had offered them straight away but along with the current engines as well so then they would have covered both C & C+ segments.
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Old 28th September 2010, 08:37   #400
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. Even I feel the segment is not the problem. Any average person who've driven the Mjet Linea can say that its not underpowered. Though on paper it produces 90BHP, that huge torque covers it up nicely. But I do agree that Fiat have wasted a fabulous chassis with the engines its married to, and I do feel its high time they brought in the 1.6MJD.
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Old 28th September 2010, 10:06   #401
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Originally Posted by revmaxx View Post
To me Fiat has missed the trick in India right from the beginning. Its mainly due to the bad choice of engines coupled with blunders in brand positioning and sales and service. Linea should have been launched with a bigger diesel engine right from the start and Punto with the 90 Bhp engine. Linea with a 1.6 MJD starting at 9 lakhs would have worked wonders for Fiat than to suffer with poor power to weight issues. Fiat should have positioned it with the likes of Corolla, Octavia etc than with smaller sedans like D'zire, Verna, Fiesta etc.
Although T-Jet is a step in the right direction, we will have to keep our fingers crossed as to how much it will help Fiat. Also I would love to own a Fiat in the near future.
Its laughable to think that a company like Fiat which were selling few hundred cars every YEAR, would have launched a car with a 1.6 diesel and the sales would have just shot up overnight. Welcome to the real world sir.

As far as being underpowered is concerned, people happily bought the Octavia at more than 12 lakhs happily so why is that a problem with Linea? Its not fast but its more than adequate for our roads and traffic.
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Old 28th September 2010, 10:19   #402
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Originally Posted by ntrack View Post
.
.
I have heard from sources that Fiat is going to revamp their customer experience & are also looking at having independent sales outlets in select cities.
.
.
Dude, can please let us know about the source of this information? I would definitely appreciate if this is true, but I don't think this is feasible in joint venture. I may be wrong here though.
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Old 28th September 2010, 12:17   #403
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Dude, can please let us know about the source of this information? I would definitely appreciate if this is true, but I don't think this is feasible in joint venture. I may be wrong here though.
Not sure about independent dealerships, but looks like there is a move to improve the customer experience at dealerships. There was an ad in TOI last week looking for sales team. But this is from TATA motors though.

Are they waiting for the team to be formed before the launch?

Ad from Bangalore Mirror attached.
Attached Thumbnails
FIAT Linea T-Jet: 1.4L Turbo Petrol. EDIT: Now launched-fiatad.png  

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Old 28th September 2010, 14:50   #404
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Did anyone get a chance to TD the TJet? We are desperately waiting for the formal TBHP driving impressions.

Regards,
Kaustubh
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Old 28th September 2010, 15:13   #405
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All i wanted to say was Fiat has an image problem.

Their products are fantastic but lacks proper image. A sedan as big as corolla, optra and octavia should have been a huge success for fiat at the price they are selling it. But its not. So i mentioned about the bigger engine and the segment positioning with a price tag matching c segment.


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