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Old 28th July 2010, 19:44   #46
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Forgetting the SX4 arent you?
Thanks. I just checked. I thought they had only 15 inch. The ZXI gives 16 inch! Did not know that!
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Old 28th July 2010, 21:22   #47
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Its late in the day but nonetheless great scoop Sid Man. Was waiting for this since Auto expo 10. Any heads up on the hill climb assist features and price et al, I read an interview where the marketing head of FIAT mentioned that the premium for the Tjet could even be 30 k. He also mentioned that there would be new features.
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Old 28th July 2010, 21:37   #48
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Wow...the Brazilian Linea looks so well built all together! Heck, why are always Indian-spec cars compromised?!?
I dont think so, look at the glove box, plastic under steering, streering pad it looks exactly same like the Indian version. Even see the bonnet alignment and gap.
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Old 28th July 2010, 22:51   #49
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that alloys are absolutely gorgeous. hope we also will get the same here (atleast in 16")
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Old 29th July 2010, 00:55   #50
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Will there be a Indigo Manza T-Jet as well
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Old 29th July 2010, 07:38   #51
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Sorry, for being slightly off topic!



AFAIK, in layman terms, MultiAir is the more advanced version of Variable Valve Timing , right?

i certainly do not expect it (MutiAir Turbo) to be on the Indian roads anytime soon.

Do you think that detuning the engine (Indian version) will have any affect on the car's performance? BTW, Have you driven the 120 bhp car in Europe? Do you think it is match for ANHC in terms of performance?
Having developed after market tuning items for the T-Jets I had to drive them and was not impressed. I find it rather sluggish.

I would preferred to have seen the 1.6 turbo Diesel, which is quicker and returns better FE.

The Multi Air is new to the European market. Might be that they want to test the waters first here in Europe. One of the problems with Multi Air is that it needs a specific grade of oil. If this is not adhered to then the Multi Air hydraulics will fail.

@ Challa - The T-Jet is a 1368 FIRE with turbo charger. The 1.6 engine was never turboed and is an engine that eventually will be withdrawn from all markets.
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Old 29th July 2010, 08:25   #52
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1) Tuning box is a no no on this engine. Only re-mapping is advisable. The block can take 400bhp, 360bhp has been done for endurance racing and some tuners offer packages up to 280bhp.

2) With the fitted turbo with air intake revision and re-map in excess of 150bhp can be achieved, with the turbo form the 150 T-Jet about 190bhp is possible and with the the SS turbo about 220bhp with induction revision is possible with 355Nm of torque (I have done all three).

The Brazilian version uses the slightly bigger IHI.

Being a performance tuner I doubt that the reduction in power has got anything to do with fuel quality. It looks more likely to be a FE issues.

3) The new T-Jets in Europe are 135bhp, but employ multi air technology. It looks like the T-Jet in India at the launch will be the twin cam version.
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4) Would 10 BHP (110 vs 120) really matter? I think the crux here is 200Nm torque, and that too at 2500 rpm. Bang! Awesome low-end drive, and with the petrol engine refinement. and superb high end too. God! Till the VW TSI comes.
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5) One thing keeps on worrying me: how will be the so called service centers handle such complicated technology (from Indian standards) while servicing the car? Attitude in general is below par, that tata days notwithstanding, in general, its going to be an uphill task for fiat to make this car succeed. GDI maintenance is not that easy as it is.
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6) Having developed after market tuning items for the T-Jets I had to drive them and was not impressed. I find it rather sluggish.

I would preferred to have seen the 1.6 turbo Diesel, which is quicker and returns better FE.

7) The Multi Air is new to the European market. Might be that they want to test the waters first here in Europe. One of the problems with Multi Air is that it needs a specific grade of oil. If this is not adhered to then the Multi Air hydraulics will fail.

8) @ Challa - The T-Jet is a 1368 FIRE with turbo charger. The 1.6 engine was never turboed and is an engine that eventually will be withdrawn from all markets.
1) 400bhp ? Then I am sure this is one of the best engine blocks around. Extracting 400bhp from 1368 cc means 292 bhp/ltr. Even the Evo series from Mitsubishi manages 190-200 bhp/ltr. from 2.0 ltr.

Why detune T-Jet so much for India ?

2) Thanks for the information. I think that 120-130 bhp would have made the car super quick in the league of Civic/Altis class.

3) Except the grade of oil, IMO Multiair should be here now. Honda has always brought in the latest evolution of their variable valve timings. Agreed that MultiAir is more complex, but a strategic long term plan would have helped.

4) Exactly, it would be high torque + good power spread through out the power band. Very smart and end results will be good after looking at the TSI in VWs.

In fact, Honda had earlier admitted that the technology of turbo in petrol motors is something they are lagging behind. Looks like turbo in petrol motors give good flexibility and Linea T-Jet will have all the torque it needs. Finally a car that can beat G3HC ( hopefully ).

5) This is what I meant by strategic long term plan. If Fiat had its own network for sales and service, I am sure Fiat could have trained the staff better. The current situation might be acting as a hindrance for bringing in more technology.

6) I expected the diesel to come in too. Again thanks for the information about the EU spec T-Jets.

7) To the best of my knowledge Multiair is very good technology that can even allow multiple valve opening. The overall gains are a noticable improvement in FE and overall performance. IIRC, even the amount of intake air is controlled. Except the grade of oil, there is no issues ( if we ignore the service network ).

IMO, the overall performance of Multiair is good enough to take risk and bring in the MultiAir tech to India.

8) Thanks for info., again.

Last edited by aaggoswami : 29th July 2010 at 08:31.
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Old 29th July 2010, 09:03   #53
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Originally Posted by aaggoswami View Post
1) 400bhp ? Then I am sure this is one of the best engine blocks around. Extracting 400bhp from 1368 cc means 292 bhp/ltr. Even the Evo series from Mitsubishi manages 190-200 bhp/ltr. from 2.0 ltr.

Why detune T-Jet so much for India ?

2) Thanks for the information. I think that 120-130 bhp would have made the car super quick in the league of Civic/Altis class.

3) Except the grade of oil, IMO Multiair should be here now. Honda has always brought in the latest evolution of their variable valve timings. Agreed that MultiAir is more complex, but a strategic long term plan would have helped.

4) Exactly, it would be high torque + good power spread through out the power band. Very smart and end results will be good after looking at the TSI in VWs.

In fact, Honda had earlier admitted that the technology of turbo in petrol motors is something they are lagging behind. Looks like turbo in petrol motors give good flexibility and Linea T-Jet will have all the torque it needs. Finally a car that can beat G3HC ( hopefully ).

5) This is what I meant by strategic long term plan. If Fiat had its own network for sales and service, I am sure Fiat could have trained the staff better. The current situation might be acting as a hindrance for bringing in more technology.

6) I expected the diesel to come in too. Again thanks for the information about the EU spec T-Jets.

7) To the best of my knowledge Multiair is very good technology that can even allow multiple valve opening. The overall gains are a noticable improvement in FE and overall performance. IIRC, even the amount of intake air is controlled. Except the grade of oil, there is no issues ( if we ignore the service network ).

IMO, the overall performance of Multiair is good enough to take risk and bring in the MultiAir tech to India.

8) Thanks for info., again.
1) I love to work with the FIRE engines because they are well designed engines. Quite a few cars have been modified in excess of 280bhp by tuners all over Europe (mainly in the 500). The 695 edition has got over 200bhp from factory. The Romeo Ferraris endurance racer has got 360 in the 500 chassis, which was a totally reworked chassis to take the power.

3) Cam shaft technology is known for over 140 years. The effect on them with different oils under different ambient conditions are known. Multi Air is still a new technology. The concept was originally limited to Italy. It is not a proven concept yet. We will get the new 2 cylinder Muti air in September, which will replace the 1.1, 1.2 and 1.4 8v FIRE. It will be step by step extended to the entire range of engines including the Diesel engines. Schaeffer and Fiat have got to lose a lot, which they can compensate for when gradually switching engines model by model and market by market.

4) The torque output of 200Nm is nothing to bragg about in a chassis as heavy as the Punto and Linea.

7) You are right, Multi air does allow for a lot. But works only on intake unlike the VEW system, which works on exhaust too. The beauty of of Multi air is that both inlet valves can be controlled independently, which means one valve can be closed while the other is operated (helping low down torque and FE), can be operated with offset (helping torque) or have any required opening angle for FE or torque.

Problem Fiat has got is that its reputation is not brilliant in India. Having failing Mult air engines wouldn't help the situation. The oil application is critical because the hydraulic of the Multi Air will cease in many cases and people will hold Fiat responsible even if the wrong oil causes the failure.

Once the Multi Air is proven in different markets it will come to India. By then the system might be developed to a level that it can take quite some abuse.
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Old 29th July 2010, 09:25   #54
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Originally Posted by CPH View Post
1) I love to work with the FIRE engines because they are well designed engines. Quite a few cars have been modified in excess of 280bhp by tuners all over Europe (mainly in the 500). The 695 edition has got over 200bhp from factory. The Romeo Ferraris endurance racer has got 360 in the 500 chassis, which was a totally reworked chassis to take the power.

3) Cam shaft technology is known for over 140 years. The effect on them with different oils under different ambient conditions are known. Multi Air is still a new technology. The concept was originally limited to Italy. It is not a proven concept yet. We will get the new 2 cylinder Muti air in September, which will replace the 1.1, 1.2 and 1.4 8v FIRE. It will be step by step extended to the entire range of engines including the Diesel engines. Schaeffer and Fiat have got to lose a lot, which they can compensate for when gradually switching engines model by model and market by market.



7) You are right, Multi air does allow for a lot. But works only on intake unlike the VEW system, which works on exhaust too. The beauty of of Multi air is that both inlet valves can be controlled independently, which means one valve can be closed while the other is operated (helping low down torque and FE), can be operated with offset (helping torque) or have any required opening angle for FE or torque.
Excellent information.

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Problem Fiat has got is that its reputation is not brilliant in India. Having failing Mult air engines wouldn't help the situation. The oil application is critical because the hydraulic of the Multi Air will cease in many cases and people will hold Fiat responsible even if the wrong oil causes the failure.

Once the Multi Air is proven in different markets it will come to India. By then the system might be developed to a level that it can take quite some abuse
+1000. Agree with you.
I remember reading that Tata-Fiat service center ended up putting in diesel engine oil in petrol linea ( or vice-versa not sure but it happened ).

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4) The torque output of 200Nm is nothing to bragg about in a chassis as heavy as the Punto and Linea.

4) SX4 is 1210 kg with 14.8 kgm of torque. Linea petrol is 1240 kg with 11.7 kgm of torque. Linea diesel is 1290 kg with 20.7 kgm of torque. Linea diesel has got good drive ability.

Secondly, apart from how much, its also matter of where the torque is produced. High torque from around 2.5K rpm will help Linea IMO. And the added power in the top end means high speed cruising would be now much easier.

But I am yet to actually drive the T-Jet.
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Old 29th July 2010, 10:06   #55
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yet again fiats is out with a brilliant car (on papers) , the specs looks great and so does the car from the pics. However when it comes to india, things are changed drastically. Right from head lamps to alloys. Not sure why do they do that :(
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Old 29th July 2010, 10:33   #56
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Originally Posted by theragingbull View Post
Wow...the Brazilian Linea looks so well built all together! Heck, why are always Indian-spec cars compromised?!?
Then we will have to pay as much as Brazilians pay :-)
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Old 29th July 2010, 10:39   #57
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and exactly how much more, if at all?
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Old 29th July 2010, 11:07   #58
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and exactly how much more, if at all?
The Fiat Brazil website (Fiat - Movidos pela paixăo) shows a price of 73290 R$ for 1.4 T-jet (but with 152 PS) (no flexi-fuel option). One R$ is about 0.57 US$. That's more than 18 lakh Indian Rupees. Of course, this car comes with ABS/airbags, alloys, much higher power/torque, broader tyres (205/50 R17), all wheel disc brakes and all.
And I don't know how on-road price is calculated in Brazil. Even if the price shown is the final price of the car, will anyone go for this car if it is priced like this in India? :-)
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Old 29th July 2010, 11:23   #59
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Reading CPH's posts, has me wondering if this is again a case of a car being too good for India. Mondeo was one such car that I recall. Just a quick question to the experts. Is there any difference between petrol and diesel turbos technically? I mean if Fiat-Tata service is servicing diesel turbos on the multijet engines, Is servicing a T-jet turbo any different?
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Old 29th July 2010, 12:30   #60
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The overall top model specs (engine + features + size + tyres) of boths T-jet versions beat most variants of the City, Civic, Laura, Corolla, Cruz, Jetta, Vento, Verna especially when combined with the potential pricing of definately being within 1L of the current top end model. Interior quality will of course be similar to the current Linea - not the best but not too bad, and definately better than the punto and also excellent in some aspects.

Should set the charts on fire (at least a candle flame compared to the current agarbati glow it has for sales).

Neat info timing Sid
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