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Old 3rd August 2012, 17:40   #286
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Default Re: Accidents : Vehicles catching fire in India

I do not want to rake up a hornet's nest here: - Aren't CNG tanks usually fitted in the boot ? The fire seems to be from the frontal areas.

Whatever caused this, my regrets for both the car owners. & Good Heavens this happened when cars were stationary.

Off Topic: CNG has a higher ignition temperature than Petrol. The 'leaking' would be the issue. CNG or otherwise. Link
Quote:
CNG is less likely to auto-ignite on hot surfaces, since it has a high auto-ignition temperature (540 C) and a narrow range (5%-15%) of flammability.
- Wikipedia
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Old 3rd August 2012, 17:50   #287
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Default Re: Accidents : Vehicles catching fire in India

Quote:
Originally Posted by DieselDon View Post
I do not want to rake up a hornet's nest here: - Aren't CNG tanks usually fitted in the boot ? The fire seems to be from the frontal areas.

Whatever caused this, my regrets for both the car owners. & Good Heavens this happened when cars were stationary.
Thats not conclusive.
The fire will be where the CNG leaks.
maybe later spread back to tank.
But that would eventually happen when the CNG pipes have been exposed to flames themselves.
(in confined spaces, the flames and heat would blowback, and eat the leaking pipe constantly)
So it could happen anywhere from the boot to the engine.
And then you'll have the surrounding bits burning(liners/hoses etc.) which would be cause the orange flames and black smoke.
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Old 3rd August 2012, 18:30   #288
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Default Re: Accidents : Vehicles catching fire in India

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Originally Posted by mayankk View Post
Thats not conclusive.
The fire will be where the CNG leaks.
maybe later spread back to tank.
But that would eventually happen when the CNG pipes have been exposed to flames themselves.
(in confined spaces, the flames and heat would blowback, and eat the leaking pipe constantly)
So it could happen anywhere from the boot to the engine.
And then you'll have the surrounding bits burning(liners/hoses etc.) which would be cause the orange flames and black smoke.
If that's the case, there should have been an explosion. The only chance of escape without an explosion is that the fire was put off before it reached the cylinder.

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Originally Posted by amtak View Post

Also, as someone mentioned, there was NO explosion whatsoever;
How sure are we that this is caused due to CNG leakage. I heard a TATA nano (initial model) was on fire and I'm sure it was not running on CNG!

Just my two cents.
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Old 3rd August 2012, 19:14   #289
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Default Re: Accidents : Vehicles catching fire in India

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Originally Posted by xydon View Post
If that's the case, there should have been an explosion. The only chance of escape without an explosion is that the fire was put off before it reached the cylinder.

How sure are we that this is caused due to CNG leakage.
Good point there xydon and leads me to think that if the car were stationery, (ie stopped and ignition OFF), then can an explosion from the engine be possible? I do not have the mechanical wisdom to answer that. But whatever the heck leaked (be it pipes, cylinder block, CNG cylinder) needs an ignition to catch fire, right?

Since no one was injured and going by the supposition that both parties are covered by insurance, let me crack this - CNG leaked from the Maruti, ignited by a mysterious spark from the VW -> resulting in fire!Both parties were the cause and both suffered the effect.

As you quoted rightly, if there is one thing that is "sure" now, it's a statement from VW as GTO put it - whether right or wrong - time will tell. VW may be taking advantage of the fact that Maruti has other issues at home (aka Manesar) to worry about and taking advantage of it - MAYBE!

End result - it's all speculation just like my cacophonic blurt above. On the contrary, who knows, I may have solved a case...
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Old 3rd August 2012, 19:24   #290
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Default Re: Accidents : Vehicles catching fire in India

Quote:
Originally Posted by mayankk View Post
Thats not conclusive.
The fire will be where the CNG leaks.
maybe later spread back to tank.
But that would eventually happen when the CNG pipes have been exposed to flames themselves.
(in confined spaces, the flames and heat would blowback, and eat the leaking pipe constantly)
The CNG baleno in our home is the car I drive daily to work. Now, earlier I had some issues with CNG ( posted on another post in road rage thread also ). When there were problems, once I got very less efficiency.

The CNG filling valve was leaking in my Baleno and I drove like than for around 800 kms. in 4 days. No fire or anything.

So leaking CNG is not likely to catch fire as quickly as petrol or even LPG. CNG is also much lighter than air and would dissipate more quickly as compared to LPG.

The safest fuel as far as fire is concerned is diesel, then CNG. So a leaking pipe or leaking CNG Esteem is not cause of this fire.

My dad's friend ran Zen ( first generation, carb., 50 hp one ) with a leaking CNG high pressure pipe for around 15 days and even took it to huge industries ( in plants where environment is hazardous ), but no incidents of fire. The high pressure pipe below the car was damaged due to bad roads and Zen being a low slung car managed to get a leaking pipe, but no fire. Its only when efficiency dropped did the leaking pipe was diagnosed and replaced.

Hence, I dont agree with the theory of CNG leaking Esteem killed Polo. If that were the case, it would be fire reaching CNG cylinder of Esteem and may be a blast in CNG cylinder.
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Old 3rd August 2012, 22:36   #291
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Default Re: Accidents : Vehicles catching fire in India

Quote:
Originally Posted by aaggoswami View Post
The CNG baleno in our home is the car I drive daily to work. Now, earlier I had some issues with CNG ( posted on another post in road rage thread also ). When there were problems, once I got very less efficiency.

The CNG filling valve was leaking in my Baleno and I drove like than for around 800 kms. in 4 days. No fire or anything.

So leaking CNG is not likely to catch fire as quickly as petrol or even LPG. CNG is also much lighter than air and would dissipate more quickly as compared to LPG.

The safest fuel as far as fire is concerned is diesel, then CNG. So a leaking pipe or leaking CNG Esteem is not cause of this fire.

My dad's friend ran Zen ( first generation, carb., 50 hp one ) with a leaking CNG high pressure pipe for around 15 days and even took it to huge industries ( in plants where environment is hazardous ), but no incidents of fire. The high pressure pipe below the car was damaged due to bad roads and Zen being a low slung car managed to get a leaking pipe, but no fire. Its only when efficiency dropped did the leaking pipe was diagnosed and replaced.

Hence, I dont agree with the theory of CNG leaking Esteem killed Polo. If that were the case, it would be fire reaching CNG cylinder of Esteem and may be a blast in CNG cylinder.
You and your friend have been very very lucky that nothing happened. As I have said earlier, CNG & Diesel being less dangerous than Petrol/LPG is just a relative comparison. Please note that all these are either combustible or flammable fluids. Common, otherwise they would not be used as fuel!! Yes as you said, the cause of fire may not be CNG, but a leaking pipe is a sure-fire recipe for disaster, since there is a chance that gas accumulates somewhere inside or in the vicinity of the vehicle
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Old 4th August 2012, 01:10   #292
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Default Re: Accidents : Vehicles catching fire in India

Quote:
Originally Posted by aaggoswami View Post
The CNG baleno in our home is the car I drive daily to work. Now, earlier I had some issues with CNG ( posted on another post in road -------------------------SNIP--------------------it would be fire reaching CNG cylinder of Esteem and may be a blast in CNG cylinder.

What I am saying is that CNG catching fire does not necessarily have to be in the boot.
It will be wherever it leaks.
Doesnt mean it HAS to catch fire.
Like you mentioned, you drove around for many kilometers before you found out about it.
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Old 4th August 2012, 11:11   #293
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Default Re: Accidents : Vehicles catching fire in India

Quote:
Originally Posted by mallumowgli View Post
You and your friend have been very very lucky that nothing happened. As I have said earlier, CNG & Diesel being less dangerous than Petrol/LPG is just a relative comparison. Please note that all these are either combustible or flammable fluids. Common, otherwise they would not be used as fuel!! Yes as you said, the cause of fire may not be CNG, but a leaking pipe is a sure-fire recipe for disaster, since there is a chance that gas accumulates somewhere inside or in the vicinity of the vehicle
I agree with @aaggoswami, CNG is much safer & won't catch fire unless the fire is ignited due to other reasons, say faulty electricals, etc. You have to use it to believe his comments.

Moreover, won't you agree about the fact that the Esteem would have been on fire till the boot ,if the CNG setup in the car had caught fire, as fire would have easily spread through the CNG lines to the cylinder in the boot. There could have been a nasty explosion in this case.

IMO VW is trying to evade its responsibility in this case.

@mayankk, since CNG is much lighter it dissipates in air very fast, but, it is not difficult to detect the leakage as some sort of Sulphur compound (Gas) is added to give it a rotten egg sort of smell, which can be detected easily if the source of leakage s inside the car. But, if the source is not inside the car it won't be detected easily. However, haven't you observed CNG rickshaw drivers smoking even when on drivers seat driving or at times resting in the rear (modded) sofa. This is, though not recommended, an ample proof of how safe this fuel can be even in case of primitive setup.

Last edited by CARDEEP : 4th August 2012 at 11:19.
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Old 4th August 2012, 20:42   #294
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Default Re: Accidents : Vehicles catching fire in India

So if a company gives a statement we don't believe it and if it does not give a statement we cry hoarse why it didn't give any - maybe its high time we decide what we want . Maybe we should develop an understanding about how corporate PR works to understand why VW would not give out a press release on one off incidents. No corporate would give a press release that draws attention to itself in an adverse manner unless it has to defend itself post some shortcoming is proven - if I were VW , I would ask where's the proof ? The Nano sales were blitzed so the Tatas were forced to issue the statement alongwith extended warranty, etc. The corporate reality is a bit different from the Team-BHP world and our wishful thinking! If the police and the RTO can prove it against VW ( in this case as well as the Vento one ) I am sure the statements, apologies and the recalls if its proven to be a systemic issue will follow - then again, lets not start whining that both of them were paid off by VW ! There would not be any end to this speculation.

Then of course there are these views being expressed on CNG which are downright misguided to say the least .

CNG is a homogenous mixture of ethane, propane, butane, methane, pentane - now which of these are not inflammable ?

Also if just the fact that specific gravity of CNG is less than air ( i.e. its lighter than air) makes it less likely to catch fire then that makes Hydrogen and Helium the safest gas to smoke around !

Maybe we should at least try to google before even attempting to express our views on as crucial a subject as safety matters ..

CNG in a pressurised environment maybe safe but when leaking its not, period ! Btw, the smell in CNG is there because intentionally traces of hydrogen sulphide is added to CNG in order to detect leaks

Last edited by souravc : 4th August 2012 at 20:49.
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Old 5th August 2012, 13:02   #295
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Default Re: Accidents : Vehicles catching fire in India

Quote:
Originally Posted by souravc View Post
then again, lets not start whining that both of them were paid off by VW ! There would not be any end to this speculation.
Quite nicely put. Looks like VW has become the favorite beater boy out here. Sure they could have done a better job with details of the fire incident that caused the unfortunate death in Pune. But circle back a few pages in this thread and we find that a Swift also caused someones death who was as young as 23 followed by no response from MSIL at all (at least I have not seen any till now on that incident). That and countless others with the other manufacturers as well. I don't recall any of us promising that we will never ever sit in a Swift again. Funny how our own personal biases easily take over the voice of reason.

EDIT: Here is the link to the Swift incident http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...wner-dies.html (Swift Catches fire: Owner Dies). I scanned through the posts but completely failed to find any amount of vitriol against MSIL like what is thrown at VW. No, I am not a VW fanboy but I just wanted to substantiate what I said. I hope all of us can stay objective henceforth.

Last edited by samarjitdhar : 5th August 2012 at 13:09. Reason: Updated reference
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Old 7th August 2012, 08:07   #296
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Default Re: Accidents : Vehicles catching fire in India

A Hyundai i20 burst into flames on the NICE road in Bangalore this time

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Good thing the driver managed to escape. This is from today's Bangalore Mirror.
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Old 8th August 2012, 10:21   #297
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Any updates on the I20 fire incident? Very fortunate for the driver and good presence of mind of the driver for escaping unhurt.
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Old 9th August 2012, 13:46   #298
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I work in the same complex where the polo & the esteem caught fire. Luckily for me, was working in another office and hence my car was not parked nearby. Otherwise i park in the nearabouts generally!!

From what i heard from colleagues, the polo caught fire first, and the breeze spread the fire to the esteem. It seems the driver of the polo did mention that the vehicle was getting pretty.

~showing my colleagues the pics and sort of proud that team bhp covers everything that happens about cars - be it at the backyard of my office
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Old 22nd August 2012, 22:16   #299
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Hi Guys,

My Baby (Zen) caught fire in the parking today. Luckily not major.

As usual I left from home for my office at around 12 and at 12.30 or so, I parked my car at Reuben's pay and park near Shah Industrial Estate, off Veera Desai Road.

After around 45 mins, the parking attendant comes to my office stating "Sir aapke gaadi mein aag lag gaya tha. Humne kaanch toda aur paani daalke bujhaya. Aap please chaliye". I was shocked to hear this.

When I went down to see what happened, I saw that the steering + the controls behind the steering had all burnt.

Luckily these guys spotted what happened and were prompt to break the windows and douse the fire.

I've done around 60k kms and have never faced any issue in the last 10 years of usage, then why today ?

I have given the car to Vitesse Ltd, Andheri (W) and logged a claim with ICICI Lombard. I'm awaiting an estimate and survey report. I should be getting it by tomorrow.

Any tips for dealing with insurance on Fire issues ?

Should I continue with the works at Vitesse or go to my trusted neighbourhood mechanic ?

I have attached a few pics for your reference.
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Accidents : Vehicles catching Fire in India-22082012.jpg  

Accidents : Vehicles catching Fire in India-22082012001.jpg  

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Old 22nd August 2012, 23:34   #300
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yogeshnagpal
Hi Guys,

My Baby (Zen) caught fire in the parking today. Luckily not major.

As usual I left from home for my office at around 12 and at 12.30 or so, I parked my car at Reuben's pay and park near Shah Industrial Estate, off Veera Desai Road.

After around 45 mins, the parking attendant comes to my office stating "Sir aapke gaadi mein aag lag gaya tha. Humne kaanch toda aur paani daalke bujhaya. Aap please chaliye". I was shocked to hear this.

When I went down to see what happened, I saw that the steering + the controls behind the steering had all burnt.

Luckily these guys spotted what happened and were prompt to break the windows and douse the fire.

I have attached a few pics for your reference.
Sorry to hear about the car.
Ive a strange question though. Can you get cctv footage where your car was parked? I dont know why but it sounds like a stealing attempt gone kaput.

What if someone tried to steal the car by breaking the window and then tried to hotwire the car which resulted in fire from the steering area? Maybe ive watched too many car movies but what if it was indeed a stealing attempt gone wrong?

Do try to get the cctv footage if possible.
Sorry if my query sounds strange. But since you said its served you for 10 long years without fail, the sudden appearance of fire is kinda tough to believe that it started on its own. Was your car stock or modified? Also do you use CNG conversion kit?

Regards.
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