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Old 10th September 2010, 19:45   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rjalihal View Post
Yet another unsung hero from Fiat?
What a way to put it!

Is Fiat fighting a losing battle?
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Old 10th September 2010, 19:49   #77
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Nice description of the numbers, GTO. The numbers from Maruti (>92K !) are simply jaw dropping. I wonder if there is a breakup between petrol and diesel powered cars - I've been seeing more oil burners than petrol cars of late. Also read in the economic times that out of every 5 cars sold in India - 3 are diesels.

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Old 10th September 2010, 20:11   #78
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Hi,

I do think that is a lot of difference considering the F10 is still in it's initial stage where only the high end variants are available, and trust me when the W212 was launched it did not even really storm the market like the F10 has, as far as I know it was also being outsold by the E60 in few months if not all. And the W212 now has a complete lineup from basic all the way onto the high end models and once the F10 gets the lower end models it will only add a lot more to it's sales.

India maybe a small market but it is growing and my analysis are only based for sales related to India which is what this thread is all about. (About the U.S do realize F10 has just come out here and the E is very popular with the senior citizens, I'm saying this because I am in the US and travel frequently and the W212 also has a lot of good deals right now, but I am not saying the E will lead here it's too early to decide on this but lets keep the conversation to India for now?) Small or big if you see monthly sales compared to a year ago the market has close to doubled in this segment and it will continue growing and I will stand by my comments that 'Mercedes truly lost out this time on the E' let both cars run their life cycle and you will see the 5 will be a leader by a margin.

When it comes to being well rounded I am not saying the E is a bad car at all, infact you should ask some old members here what Mercedes has meant to me, I am only saying that when compared the F10 truly outshines the W212 and while presence is subjective I think the F10 is one of the most beautiful sedans ever, I prefer it's clean look.

Let some more months pass by and you will see barring a few months the F10 will always outsell the W212, unless Mercedes-Benz India truly come up with value pricing with more options.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rrsteer View Post
I dont agree with your comments. Firstly, F10 has NOT completely outsold the W212. The number is 260 odd to 210 odd in BMW's favor, but also take into account that it is just the second full month since F-10 deliveries started.

And India is too small a market to base your conclusion on - that 'Mercedes has truly lost out'. No, they haven't. Take for example the US. There, in August, the E class outsold the new 5 by almost a margin of 2:1 !!

I haven't driven the new 5 series, but I have had the privilege of driving the new E class for quite a duration of time. Its a truly well rounded and a very accomplished piece of machinery. The F-10 may or may not have trumped it. But, atleast for our geography, I feel, the F-10 has one major drawback. It lacks presence.
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Old 10th September 2010, 20:14   #79
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Originally Posted by GTO View Post

- The Chevrolet siblings, Spark (2,462) and Beat (2,461), bring the General a respectable (total) volume. However, I'm surprised by the Beats mere 2.5K level. The car is VFM priced, has excellent ride quality, good build and some stand-out features. Obviously, there is some overlap between the closely priced Spark & Beat. Probably the market hasn't taken too kindly to its futuristic love-me-or-hate-me styling either.

GTO hats off to you! An excellent number reporting and analysis done which was not available anywhere else!


Being a Beat owner I really find it surprising to see less number of Beats on the road in Mumbai while going to work everyday. I remember my confusion in choosing between Beat & Figo, but finally going for Beat because of the VFM pricing and immediate availability and of course the looks. I really am not able to buy the argument that people are not open to futuristic styling. If an i20 can sell, the only reason that Beat is probably not selling because of the poor ***. While Ford was notorious about its high priced spares when Figo was launched, its surprising that buyers have flocked to the Figo. Though I do admit its an VFM buy. Hope the Indian car buyer sees some sense and gobbles up more Beats instead of plonking for cars like Marutis just because of the ***.
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Old 10th September 2010, 21:00   #80
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WOW!! This is Brilliant stuff GTO *hats off*
I dint stop reading until the last line.
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Old 11th September 2010, 00:41   #81
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Excellent right up GTO. I studied the whole thread without taking a break. Your analysis is great. What about the sales of Tata Ace Magic? Does it not come under any passenger vehicle segment?
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Old 11th September 2010, 01:05   #82
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A very nice analysis. In a country like india with wide variety of regional preferences, is there a huge difference in kind of cars/bikes sold too. Not just urban/rural divide which is evident in sales of Bolero or Jeeps.

For instance, i have stayed in bangalore all my life and not only have seen loads of mercs from years but also new models from unpopular brands too sell initially. (But of course i cant prove it ).

Punto or Beat has very low overall sales. Like Punto sells 1 car for every 26 altos as per this report. But in bangalore i dont believe that alto outsells by more than 10:1. I know individual region wise sales might be impossible to get but is anyone else of the opinion some cars do sell well at some places?

My thoughts are just based on observation in bangalore and not on any facts as such. I just see too many puntos and hardly any number of vistas in bangalore to not come to this conclusion.
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Old 11th September 2010, 02:03   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S350L-E240 View Post

trust me when the W212 was launched it did not even really storm the market like the F10 has, as far as I know it was also being outsold by the E60 in few months if not all
I dug up a few threads. Results:

Jan -10 E = 245; 5 er = 112

Feb -10 E = 161; 5 er = 122

Mar -10 E = 255; 5 er = 183
:
:
Jun- 10 E = 164; 5 er = 25


Quote:
Originally Posted by S350L-E240 View Post
And the W212 now has a complete lineup from basic all the way onto the high end models and once the F10 gets the lower end models it will only add a lot more to it's sales.
Point taken. But like you, I also have a personal opinion here. This is just pent up demand being unleashed for 5 series. In the last few months before F-10's launch its figures were in 20's.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S350L-E240 View Post
India maybe a small market but it is growing and my analysis are only based for sales related to India which is what this thread is all about. (About the U.S do realize F10 has just come out here and the E is very popular with the senior citizens, I'm saying this because I am in the US and travel frequently and the W212 also has a lot of good deals right now, but I am not saying the E will lead here it's too early to decide on this but lets keep the conversation to India for now?)
Point taken again. Lets keep it to India.
But for one last time.
I am in US too. Surely good deals and senior citizens alone cannot justify E class out selling by a margin of 2:1. F-10 is now into its 3rd month of sale in US

Quote:
Originally Posted by S350L-E240 View Post
Let both cars run their life cycle and you will see the 5 will be a leader by a margin.

Let some more months pass by and you will see barring a few months the F10 will always outsell the W212
Could be. After all, F-10 too must be a mighty good product, coming from BMW. And in 2009, BMW 5 series did outsell Merc E Class for 10 straight months and some times by humiliating margins.

But at this point the above statement made by you is just your individual analysis. I have one too. And quite different to yours.
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Old 11th September 2010, 02:54   #84
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rrsteer,

Thanks for those figures and here's a few from October 2009 until December 2009, do remember the W212 went on sale late September 2009 so I am only including figures from October 2009.

Oct : E / 5 = 125 / 158
Nov : E / 5 = 117 / 114
Dec : E / 5 = 136 / 109

Imagine pretty much since launch the E has not had the big bang start a whole new generation of car should have, don't you think? Yes maybe Inventories maybe low for the W212 but thats where I give BMW India a credit on how active they are and also on how well they are managed in this country.

And yes last few months before F10 the demand was low because they pretty much had stopped the production and believe me the last few E60's moved out a lot quicker then the W211.

Also about the US, like I said I do not do much of a review on sales here because as far as I know BMW leads ahead generally. ( I could be wrong here but like ) And do walk into the BMW dealership and you will realize the F10 is hard to get off the shelf unless things have changed in the last month or so. And sorry I did not mean that Senior citizens are the sole reason for the E to sell, I just see a lot of them driving one.

I hope none of my points were offensive, or rude in anyways, and trust me I am not even saying the W212 is a bad car, it's an amazing car, it's just that the F10 out does it and now the F10 is good in comfort too which was usually an advantage with the E, and also in India like I said before BMW somehow know how to sell a car a lot better then Mercedes does. And again my personal opinion has always been since the W212 came out that BMW will outsell the Mercedes and the numbers do show a good lead so lets wait and watch.

Lastly don't you think that the W212 has it's lower end variants too on sale while the BMW is only present in it's higher trim variants and if the W212 lags by about 50 cars now it will only lead to a bigger gap when the 520's are launched? And like I said in my first post Mercedes India will have to add more options and include newer engines etc to keep it going and now that they have the CGI motors in the C I think it's high time they get it on the E but I believe they might wait for the new 3.5L Engine with 306bhp which is just launched in the CLS & the S.

p.s Do look at my avatar so you will realize I am in no ways a BMW fanboy

Regards,

Last edited by S350L-E240 : 11th September 2010 at 03:00. Reason: Error in figures / model data
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Old 11th September 2010, 09:03   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post

- I'd always insisted that the Maruti 800 is more popular within semi-urban / rural cities than in the large metros. This statement is validated by the fact that, despite the 800 being phased out of BS-IV cities, its numbers haven't drastically fallen, compared to the "pre-BSIV" months. Still, the former "most popular" Indian car (for over 2 decades) eats humble pie with only 1,919 units in August. Clearly, price alone doesn't make for purchase criteria anymore. Indian customers see more value in the Maruti Alto (above) and Tata Nano (below). Maruti is unnecessarily dragging the M800 beyond its time. I say, release 500 limited edition 800s with the 1.6 VVT under the hood (collectible edition ), have a grand farewell party and R-I-P.

This would be the best way to give the 800 its VERY much deserved farewell than flogging it. @GTO please send a mail to MSIL regarding the 1.6VVT edition 800 uniq .

P.S. I think the 1.6VVT M800 will leave almost every car dead because of its power to weight ratio.

Last edited by petroguzzler : 11th September 2010 at 09:12.
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Old 11th September 2010, 10:05   #86
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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
For the Fiesta? Why then are Fiesta special editions being rolled out with cut-price tags (not to mention, dealer discounts too)? Usually, when the production doesn't meet demand, prices go up, not down.
The special editions are usually the lowest trim fitted with accessories at the dealer end. This is applicable only on the cars standing in the yard. You want a trim that's not in the yard, you pay the regular price (with applicable corp discounts) and the wait period is 4 to 6 weeks depending on timing of the order.

And effective prices have indeed gone up. The 1.6S or SXi used to cost 7.55 on road for someone in an A List corporate in Nov 2009. This is what BHP-ian TheHummerGuy paid. It's now 7.99 for the same A list corporate. Latest info on prices from Mi10.
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Old 11th September 2010, 10:21   #87
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Would give some insight for Mahindra--
Bolero sold less as it is manufactured less due to a fuel pump issue(vendor).

Logan is selling more as the dealer IS billed approx 4 Logans every month, irrespective of order placed.

Last edited by Sheel : 11th September 2010 at 10:23.
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Old 11th September 2010, 10:53   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
A2 Hatchback Segment:


- Bottom of the class : Fiat Grande Punto 1,012 (a premium hatch with not so premium interiors, fit, finish and brand), the Honda Jazz 587 (excellent car that's shockingly overpriced), Skoda Fabia 496 (learn from VW!), the Chevrolet U-VA 234 (who?) and the Fiat Palio 12 (are you still around?).
I am a fan of the Jazz - a friend in Chennai has it as his second car and I checked it out when I went there last. I like it for its design/looks/features, space and comfort levels, and the engine. I think it should be priced on par (plus/minus a small %) with the i20. (An auto transmission as well as a diesel version will surely help matters )

GTO - why do you think Honda are obstinately holding on to that outrageous pricing?
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Old 11th September 2010, 16:22   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by petroguzzler View Post
This would be the best way to give the 800 its VERY much deserved farewell than flogging it. @GTO please send a mail to MSIL regarding the 1.6VVT edition 800 uniq .

P.S. I think the 1.6VVT M800 will leave almost every car dead because of its power to weight ratio.
I guess the 1.6VVT M800 will not only move, it would probably be airborne the moment the driver floors the accelerator. But then, you would need to provide two locks each for the driver/passenger doors, bonnet and hatch doors to prevent them from flying apart with such momentum.
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Old 11th September 2010, 23:16   #90
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Found some new trends:
In the most competitive segment the i 10 has dropped to 4th place after being the second best seller for some months. The Alto reigns, the Wagon R and Swift have reached the no. 2 and 3 slots.Its noteworthy that the Swift about five years ever since its launch commands enough hype and waiting lists- the greatest USP is that there are still no major discounts or freebies on the Swift be it petrol or diesel.Knocking at the doors to enter the top five in this segment are the Ford Figo and the Volkswagen Polo.
The Scorpio sells 3082 units. Thats an achievement! The Xylo at 2934 is close by the Scorpio and may sometime go ahead of its elder sibling.
Innova leads in its segment with its 4238 units and the Eeko/Versa being placed in this MUV segment gives a wrong picture.
The Maruti 800 (1986 launch) sells 1909 despite being out of the Metro markets.And the A Star, a new launch (of 2008) sells only 2502 units.
Fiat India Automobile Ltd (FIAL) is losing out in its sales performance after the initial hoopla in 2009, post launch honeymoon phase, of its sedan and hatch.Tata is on cloud nine otherwise.
Can lament and sing this song for FIAL and its 1.3 multijet diesel engine that powers the Linea, Punto, Palio, Swift,Ritz, Indica Vista,Indigo Manza -

Hey re Kanhaiyya kisko kahega tu Maiyya,
Ek ne tujhko jeevan diya re, ek ne jeevan sambhala,
Hey re Kanhaiya kiso kahega tu Maiyya!

The Premium SUV segment seems to be Fortuner dominated. The Captiva,Endeavour,Outlander, Pajero,X Trail are all pygmies in the sales sweepstakes.Am too happy because the Honda CRV and the Suzuki Vitara have been shown the door by buyers.
The D segment is all about Skoda and the Accord.The Superb has an edge as of now.
In the luxury sedan segments the war between Mercedes and BMW is very apparent. The figures are in the tens or hundreds and every month we will observe something new, as Beemers may lead or may be its the Merc in one or the other segment.
The Q5's dominance in the Premium SUV segment is also noteworthy.
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