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Old 12th September 2010, 04:29   #1
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Default Where are the 1.2 liter turbocharged petrols?

Shopping for a petrol hatch today throws a LOT of choices..as long as you are satisfied with a 1.2 liter engine (there are a few exceptions but we won't talk about those).
Now, as all of us know, this is because of the excise duty cut for sub 1.2 liter petrol engines. This has led to a wide range of petrol engines from the 65ps fiat FIRE engine to the 90ps one on the jazz.

What i don't get is, why hasn't a single manufacturer stuck a simple turbocharger onto one of their engines? AFAIK there is no legislation which says that turbocharged 1.2s are not eligible for the excise duty cut. Correct me if i'm wrong on that one.

I'l list out the obvious advantages.
1. No losses is excise duty cut.
2. Similar mileage figures on paper, possibly better in reallife as engine is revving at a lower speed to keep the car going at the same speed
3. Relatively cheap to manufacture. Not to mention some profits can be made by selling the car alongside the non-turbo version and charging a premium.
4. Most importanty, a LOT more bhp. Not to mention even a non-enthusiast driver will absolutely love the turbo kick. Hey, and there's possibilities of VGT versions producing even more power.

Basically, a 100-110bhp 1.2 liter engine for not a lot more effort...

The closest i've heard to this is a supercharged nissan micra putting out 94bhp in the pipeline somewhere.

I don't understand why noone's done this yet. Yes, granted that diesels are easier to turbocharge due to their inherent resistance to higher operating pressures but still..i'd love to see a whole bunch of cheap, fuel efficient, nonpolluting, petrol pocket rockets....

Last edited by nukeblitz : 12th September 2010 at 04:33. Reason: Minor errors
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Old 12th September 2010, 06:50   #2
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apart from the jazz and maybe the 1.2 i20.
all 1.2 engines are aimed at the VFM segment. Addition of a Turbo/supercharger will get the costs up substantially.

On a Personal note i would love to see the polo with the 1.2 TFSI.
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Old 12th September 2010, 11:11   #3
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A very relevant argument. Right now, the market is flooded with underpowered 1.2 engines further tuned for FE. And then you have manufacturers offering 1.3/1.4/1.5 variants in their hatchbacks, with higher fuel consumption and devoid of the excise benefits.

Sub-1.2, blown petrol engines are the way forward. The power output would be similar to bigger engines variants, while the FE would remain that of a small engine. The only downside would be cost, but that would be offset in the long term, when small turbo petrols become the norm.
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Old 12th September 2010, 12:22   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vinaydas View Post
apart from the jazz and maybe the 1.2 i20.
all 1.2 engines are aimed at the VFM segment. Addition of a Turbo/supercharger will get the costs up substantially.

On a Personal note i would love to see the polo with the 1.2 TFSI.

The Problem is most people don't care about BHP, only price and fuel efficiency. While, as you say fuel efficiency wont be affected, price most certainly will.
I don't see much success for Turbo Petrols in India just yet, we're a very price sensitive market.
Not to mention turbo's require extra care and maintenance.

On a side note, a 1.6 Turbo Diesel Polo would be an amazing choice for enthusiasts and the economically minded alike, too bad VW has no plans to launch that in India.
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Old 12th September 2010, 13:07   #5
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1.2l engines for 85% of the car buying public is powerful enough for city driving.And since consumers are happy manufacturers are happy.

1.They are fuel efficient.
2.The have low emissions
3.Built on a large scale they are cheap.
4.They give adequate and smooth linear power delivery,with low down torque(in most cases)
5.Cheap to maintain

cons of turbocharging
1.Turbo lag.There is still a large number of consumers who might not familiar with turbo lag and may find it difficult to drive in B2B traffic.
2.100-110 bhp for the avg commuter maybe a bit more than really needed.
3.Expensive to maintain.
4.Will push up prices of cars

But i am not to sure how many engines have a turbo version internationally.Does engines like K12 and other 1.2l have turbo versions?
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Old 12th September 2010, 13:16   #6
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Maybe it is not a good idea to have too many pocket rockets. As it is, people drive like crazy trying to overtake in small gaps as if their life depends on it. Can imagine what such people would do if they had a turbo under the hood as well.

It will be a good idea if speed limits are enforced.
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Old 12th September 2010, 14:49   #7
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I do understand that prices will go up. Probably by around 30-40k at the most. But the trick would be to sell the non-turbo version alongside the turbo version like they did with the indica and indica turbo. Not to mention the manufacturer would probably able to make a profit on the turbo itself.

While it's true that 1.2s are aimed at the vfm segment, that's also a reason why they are an excellent option to turbocharge. That's because the vfm segment also includes the hordes of young 20 something first time buyers who would look for and love the extra power. The reduced power would still be available at a lower price and maintainence for those who don't want it.

And as far as the turbolag goes, anyone who has driven a turbodiesel would be familiar with it. Even for those who are not familiar with it, driving it in city wouldn't be a problem as long as you compare it with the non-turbo engine cuz the non-turbo would be all lag and never any turbo anyway :-D ..and petrols generally have a decent amount of pep even when they are non-turbo. I don't think the engine would be horrible to drive before the turbo spools up...

And regarding the extra power making the roads more dangerous, i don't think that making power harder to access is the way to go to make roads safer. The same rash driver would be dangerous whether the car involved is 80bhp or 100bhp.

I don't think the price itself would be an issue for the manufacturer as they would be passed on to the consumer and the targeted wouldn't mind it. I'll give you the similar example of the alto and the alto k10. Except that here, it's even simpler to manufacture as all the components would literally be the same. Look under the hood of an indica and an indica turbo and you'll see what i mean. The only things that may need to be changed are the gearbox to allow for the the extra power. But i think that as an extra cost cutting measure, you could just use the same gear ratios with just a different differential. And maybe you'd have to get rid of the puny 155 width tires and put on some decent ones but that will probably add to the appeal but not decrease the FE by too much.

I read about a supercharged nissan micra somewhere but no, AFAIK there are no 1.2 turbos anywhere, except for the aftermarket jobs on some swifts...

Last edited by nukeblitz : 12th September 2010 at 15:01. Reason: Minor errors
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Old 12th September 2010, 14:57   #8
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Cost of Adding a turbo will offset the tax advantage. Now, if the tax advantage is to be ignored, there is no need to restrict to the 1.2 litre cap.

I would prefer a higher displacement NA engine to a Turbo charged lower displacement one.

Each model should have a tax advantage 1.2 litre unit and a no holds barred higher displacement one selling side by side.
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Old 12th September 2010, 15:10   #9
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That's true about the tax advantage but i'd think that a 1.2 turbo with the excise duty cut would still be cheaper than a naturally aspirated 1.4 or 1.6 not to mention there would be a LOT more shared components which would make it an easier logistics exercise for the manufacturer. Also, a higher displacement usually means a drop in FE which matters in this segment. And wasn't FE the reason the palio 1.6 didn't sell?

Last edited by nukeblitz : 12th September 2010 at 15:13. Reason: Minor errors
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Old 12th September 2010, 15:51   #10
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May be one more reason for manufactures not interested in manufacturing 1.2 turbo engines is the amount of additional heat the turbo will generate as the turbo works on exhaust gas compression. Then after cooling or inter-cooler will be required. Here the economics doesn't work or they have to bring direct injection technology which will be even more expensive.

Also this thread has good information.

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techni...l-engines.html (Turbocharging of petrol engines?)

Last edited by v&v : 12th September 2010 at 16:09.
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Old 12th September 2010, 16:59   #11
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Actually, i have no idea how much extra it would cost. I was just going by the cost difference between the indica and indica turbo which was around 30k. Yes, petrols are harder to turbocharge. The returns will probably be less than that of a diesel but then, there are a number of aftermarket jobs on cars like the swift.

Can anyone clear up how much it would cost? And what the power gained is?
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Old 12th September 2010, 17:20   #12
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I see only 2 reasons:
1) "Does the job" factor
2) Fuel Efficiency

Does the mass market need a turbocharged engine at this point? But yeah, a sport version for any car with 1.2 Turbo Charged might be a better option rather than a normal 1.6L. (1.2L Segment)
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Old 12th September 2010, 20:15   #13
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I think supercharging small engines would be a better option (i think there is less complexity with a supercharger ? no exhaust gas pressure/heat, back pressure problems -experts please clarify).

The supercharged Nissan Micra is manufactured at Nissan's Chennai plant but is only for exports as of now. There is always the possibility of Nissan introducing it. (i hope so )

The other reason we see no 1.2's with turbos, I feel is, since the 1.2L benefits are exclusive to India, these engines have to turbo'ed specifically for this market. And since none of the global guys develop engines here, chances of this happening in the near future look slim. Hope our very own Tata or M&M try out this route. I was hoping for a supercharged/turbocharged Nano europa, but it seems the europa will be getting a 3 cyl mill...
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Old 12th September 2010, 21:11   #14
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Certain People were complaining regarding a 30k increase in the punto for the VGT.
Imagine the hue and cry people will make for an additional turbo which will cost close to a lac on a NA 1.2 engine.

The 1.2 is for the masses and making it more expensive doesn't make sense to the car manufacturers.
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Old 13th September 2010, 11:51   #15
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From the perspective of the car manufacturers the Indian market is not big enough at this moment in time to develop engines specifically for the Indian market.

However, small turbo engines are being developed for other markets.

Fiat has developed the 900cc twin multi air engine, which will come as normally aspirated as well as turbocharged versions. One variant to be launched will have a specific power output of 105bhp.

Renault has got a 1.2l turbocharged engine in the Twingo. This one might come to India when Renault finally will launch.

In the next couple of years some more small turbo engines will appear on the market because of European emission regulations. These engines will spill over to the Indian market too.

We just have to wait and enjoy the engines they provide right now.
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