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Old 11th September 2006, 22:54   #31
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But...but Hyundai has plenty of SUV's, they can put these V6/V8 wallahs into them All sports and no utility vehicles...no ??
Which high-end SUV does Hyundai have anyways?
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Old 12th September 2006, 03:40   #32
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.hyundai can bring back the terracan and plonk a v6 into it.just a thought.
but they have decent if not good diesel engines in whichever segment their cars are in.
in the indian context would love to see the 3pot crdi being plonked into the getz.
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Old 12th September 2006, 06:54   #33
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Originally Posted by hellspawn
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in the indian context would love to see the 3pot crdi being plonked into the getz.
3 pot crdi? If I have read it correctly, they are planning to plonk in their new 4 cyl engine with a different state of tune. If it produces around 110 horses in Verna, it is rumoured to produce around 87 horses in getz.
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Old 12th September 2006, 11:01   #34
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Originally Posted by lurker
Praay where are the hyundai varients ???
1. Where are the cars, as GTO pointed out? Why diesels - they do not have showcase PETROL engines other than the 3.8 V6 that goes into the American Sonata (278 bhp is not even within supercar-sniffing distance) and the allegedly high capacity V8 for the new RWD Equus.

2. Would you ever be able to afford a Jag/BM diesel? You are getting technology that is relevant for the market - which is more important than showcase technology that you can only drool at.

Besides, if they have the tech to build class-leading engines in their segments, I am sure they will come out with suitably powerful diesel engines as and when they go premium.

Do not scorn at a manufacturer just because they only build stuff that you CAN afford.

Last edited by Steeroid : 12th September 2006 at 11:09.
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Old 12th September 2006, 11:06   #35
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I don't think it's fair to compare the specs of Audi A6, Merc E Class with any Hyundai car, simply because of the massive price difference.
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Old 12th September 2006, 11:28   #36
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Very important point, Steeroid - Hyundai made common-rail available to the masses through their Accent CRDi (and popularised the technology in India). I believe only Mercedes offered CDI before Hyundai in India, but at prices 4X more.
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Old 12th September 2006, 11:35   #37
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Originally Posted by GTO
Which high-end SUV does Hyundai have anyways?
Classic chicken and egg situation !

because they do not have a V6/V8 diesel engine, they do not have a high-end SUV.Their terracan competes with say a Toyota 4Runner or even a Nissan Titan pickup in the North American market but they come with 4.7 ltr V6 and 5.6 ltr V8 diesel engines resp.

Hyundai positioned itself in the 'utility' VFM category is it not ??

Why should a customer prefer in his mind, the 5th or 6th positioned entity in the VFM and 'utility' category ??

Quote:
Where are the cars, as GTO pointed out?
You originally wanted a comparison of engines IIRC !

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Do not scorn at a manufacturer just because they only build stuff that you CAN afford.
Affordability might be a factor in India because of a 'controlled economy' viz controlled currency and import restrictions. But in places where these are not factors Hyundai comes in for a tough grind.
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Old 12th September 2006, 11:47   #38
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because they do not have a V6/V8 diesel engine, they do not have a high-end SUV.
I suggest you take another look at their strategy. They have traditionally NOT competed in the higher end segment, simply because there will be few takers for the Hyundai brand in those segments. That is not exclusive to Hyundai, but also Honda / Toyota / Nissan who had to create newer brands (Acura / Lexus / Infiniti respectively). It is also not exclusive to the North American market, with even Indians being reluctant to shell out anything over 10 lacs for a Hyundai.

Hyundais competitive advantage has become significantly strong in the last decade, with even Toyota admitting that they are keeping a close eye on them. Hyundai has also been credited with keeping the Civic / Corolla / Accord / Camry prices in control.

But IMHO, Hyundai will eventually develop a strategy to enter the premium markets. Whether it will be via buying a brand out or introducing a new brand...or something else...only time will tell.
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Old 12th September 2006, 11:54   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lurker
Classic chicken and egg situation !
Quote:
Originally Posted by lurker
Why should a customer prefer in his mind, the 5th or 6th positioned entity in the VFM and 'utility' category ??
Quote:
Originally Posted by lurker
You originally wanted a comparison of engines IIRC !
Quote:
Originally Posted by lurker
Affordability might be a factor in India because of a 'controlled economy' viz controlled currency and import restrictions. But in places where these are not factors Hyundai comes in for a tough grind.
1. Affordability matters everywhere, not just in India.

2. My point was to highlight the strides they have made in diesel engine development. Obviously they will build engines for the cars that they have, not for cars that other manufacturers have. If you want to argue, they also make diesel engines that churn out a few thousand bhp - for their ships.

Finally, what exactly is your point? There are two ways of participating in a discussion. The constructive way would be to build a position for yourself based on facts and speaking from that position.

The other - easier and more disruptive - method is to go about contradicting someone else's position. While this may seem like a lot of activity, it doesnt really take the discussion anywhere. This is where we are at now, and I rest my position.
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Old 12th September 2006, 12:04   #40
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I have no arguments with that GTO. I just wish to state that developing engines underlines a steep learning curve that originally defines companies with considerable pedigree and experience in the field of 'engine development'. Ofcourse Hyundai can take a short-cut and buy-out any such company and make things easier for themselves.

Presently their situation is such that they have to depend upon AVL for developing CRDI engines which places them in the same boat as Tata or Mahindra.

For information sakes and not directly related to the topic, engine development in India has thrown up some interesting conclusions. DRDO and Avadi tank factory have been trying to develop a 1500 hp engine for the Arjun Tank since the past 20-25 yrs and finding themselves nowhere near to success they had to turn to German engine maker MTU.

Similarly not related to cars is the the Indian development of the Kaveri Engine (Actually turbine) for the LCA, a process which is ongoing for the past 30 yrs initially at HAL and then at GTRE with not so spectacular results resulting in GTRE/DRDO turning towards Pratt & Whitney/Snecma for inspiration and guidance. The original manufacturers of the LCA engine GE are cold towards developing any engines in collaboration with GTRE because it undercuts their market, currently LCA engines are the GE-404 INRD?.

These examples are dissimilar to the topic at hand but just goes to prove that engine development has a steep learning curve and isn't an easy task by any means. When MB/BMW/Audi/VW are developing engines they are also depending upon decades of German experience in the field. And this is envelop of experience the Koreans yet do not possess and might even take more time to develop if they 'go it alone' !
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Old 12th September 2006, 12:13   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steeroid
If you want to argue, they also make diesel engines that churn out a few thousand bhp - for their ships.
bit OT! , think one out of every 3rd ship is a Hyundai one ( saw a program on their Korean shipyard)

and why just diesel? When SAntro was launched, it had one of the best ( only mpfi ?) engine in the below 5lac , 6yrs back! And then when the market needed, they upgraded the engine to 1.1. Even now the 1.1 erlx engine rules.
Hyundai showed others that we are eligible for quality products and newer tech.

Just wait till teh Verna and Elantra is out here, Skoda and others gonna have a tough time.
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Old 12th September 2006, 12:23   #42
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I don't understand your point lurker.

In terms of engine development, Hyundai may not have as much experience as some of the other giants, but they still provide good CRDi engines that reliable, efficient, and more VFM than anybody else.

Also, look at the difference in performance between Accent/Fiesta and Endeavour/Tucson - the two price segments where Hyundai has a competitor for its diesels. The Hyundais pretty much leave the Fords for dead.
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Old 12th September 2006, 12:27   #43
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@Lurker: Everyone on this thread acknowledges that building superalitive engines require time and effort. However, the underlying spirit behind this thread is to make mention of what Hyundai is achieving through their in-house efforts at a realively faster pace than the others. Whether they will give the premium brands a run for their money - only time will tell. My money is on Hyundai for sure.

Most are on the thread are giving credit where it is due.

Hyundai has done a lot for the Indian automotive scene, constantly raising the bar and making technology affordable. That is a true test. You can make the best engine but how does it help if it beyond the reach of most.

Generally speaking there is a lot of Hyundai bashing in our forum (I am trying to pass any judgement here - just my observation).
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Old 12th September 2006, 12:28   #44
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Yup, agreed that Hyundai has taken the easier way by buying out / collaborating with some companies to learn more about technologies. But from their point of view....Why reinvent the wheel? Does an Accent CRDi customer care who developed their engine as long as it is a performer and is covered by Hyundais warranty?
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Old 12th September 2006, 12:38   #45
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No Rover I am not bashing Hyundai, if another Asian player makes it in the international arena then I respect them. Just pointing out that keeping in mind the engine-devpt curve they stand on a slippery surface.

B_Shiva, Ford has a long heritage of engine development and also manages marques like Jaguar, Volvo etc which run on Ford or Ford collaboration V6/V8 engines. If they wish they can turn the endeavour into a torque-demon.

GTO, I agree that accent is a car for college students in US, and VFM customers in India, and this segment isn't as influenced by the negative or laggardly perceptions prevalent in other segments.
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