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Old 11th October 2010, 23:04   #511
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At around 18L OTR in Bangalore, it just doesn't seem to make sense

One the one hand being proud that an Indian company is launching a new product & growing, on the other looking at customers who nowadays are more aware of the products they are buying, it doesn't look rosy at all for TATA.

Loads of gizmos are nice, but basic issues like body roll, inconsistent panel gaps, average paint quality & after sales service, reliability, interior fit & finish etc should be addressed. TATA should concentrate to improve on these areas without trying to divert customers attention to buy their products on the basis of 7 storage bins & other silly features.

Just look at Toyota's strength in basic engineering, their products perform perfectly where needed in basic areas of engine, transmission, suspension, braking, safety,reliabilty etc. How many issues have Tbhp members reported with their Toyota's ?

Customers are a lot more aware nowadays & its going to take more than acres of space, brand & gizmos to convince them to lay down their money on an 18L vehicle.
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Old 11th October 2010, 23:07   #512
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Here are couple of videos explaining Aria's features.






Last edited by neeld : 11th October 2010 at 23:22. Reason: Added another video
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Old 11th October 2010, 23:09   #513
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Default VFM or NOT??

My thoughts:
1. Is Aria VFM? IMO definitely 'YES'. Base Aria is more loaded then top variant of Innova with similar price tag.
2. Just by its 'external looks' does it look like a Rs.13-16Lakh vehicle? - IMO not really.
3. By 'interiors' it does look like a premium vehicle.

Aria is indeed a bold move from Tata . I don't go by sales figures to call a car good or bad hence will wait for T-BHP's formal review to know how good/bad it is and then take a test drive myself .

Last edited by HammerHead : 11th October 2010 at 23:18.
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Old 11th October 2010, 23:16   #514
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Originally Posted by amoghchaphalkar View Post
I don't quite understand this "Aria is not VFM" argument. I think on most occasions VFM gets mistaken with affordability.
Is any other manufacturer offering the same features as the Aria at a price point which is below that of Aria ?
+1 And like to add that even if the CBU 20+Lakh SUVs were to be built in India, and hence lose 3L off their prices, they'll still not have the features that the Aria has, nor the versatility.

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Originally Posted by dhuli View Post
Found a nice review by BS Motoring, which claims to be the first video review.

Quite rightly the reviewer compares it to other soft roaders matching viz. Captiva and CRV. Not Innova - guess it is not an AWD, although an MPV. Not Fortuner/Endeavour/Pajero - no SUV features. And none of these, except for Aria come with 6 air bags or ESP.

Isnt it a bit unfair to bundle puddle lamps and auto folding OVRMs along with solid saftey features as gizmos! I think it helps the discussion at this level - saftey, comfort, style etc. before deciding if it is over priced or VFM. For e.g. the glove chiller box appeals to me since I travel often with kids who might ask for a sandwich or a drink along the way and nothing like a chiller to keep things fresh. And so on...the appeal adds up. Guess it depends on how serious one is about buying too. I for one am.
I don't intend to buy one (can't afford it!) but I completely agree with you. If one were to actively consider the consider the features and then look at the price, it would make a LOT of sense. What most people are doing is looking at the price and then thinking "TATA! Naah". Which definitely is unfair to Tata.

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Originally Posted by nirmaljusdoit View Post
At around 18L OTR in Bangalore, it just doesn't seem to make sense
Loads of gizmos are nice, but basic issues like body roll, inconsistent panel gaps, average paint quality & after sales service, reliability, interior fit & finish etc should be addressed. TATA should concentrate to improve on these areas without trying to divert customers attention to buy their products on the basis of 7 storage bins & other silly features.
Right. Some more "silly" features: ABS with EBD, ESP, 6 Airbags, TOD 4x4. Ridiculous.
And maybe we should all go back to the beginning of the thread and read FlyingSpur's review. The panel gaps are not Inconsistent, body roll is under control (considering the GC), and the Interior Fit & Finish is up there with the Innova. And when was Tata's paint quality average? Mercedes used to have Tata paint their cars till very recently.

About issues with Toyota, an ownership thread of the Fortuner mentions that the brakes are poorer than the SX4. Not a "niggling" issue, but definitely a major drawback IMHO. Don't see that being tom-tommed across ten pages, but maybe that's cos it is a Toyota.

I'm going to wait for the reviews just because I'd like confirmation that these are truly well built cars. If so, then I think the only thing that would prevent the Aria from selling decently would be our own hypocrisy.

Last edited by VeluM : 11th October 2010 at 23:25.
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Old 11th October 2010, 23:19   #515
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Well, to get appreciation of the public, I guess now TATA has sell themselves to Toyota ..
Then the skepticism will transform as optimism, just my humble thoughts..

Irrespective of the price band, I believe it is an achievement for the whole indian auto industry where not any Indian brands are manufaturing products that can compete in terms of engineering or quality with the global players.
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Old 11th October 2010, 23:21   #516
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sutripta View Post
My thoughts exactly initially.

But for a 'world car' lack of an auto, and an I6 is surprising.

Regards
Sutripta
ARIA is not a world car yet. There are rumours that the FIAT 1.9L engine would be mounted to ARIA in its world car avatar. Moreover most world cars are down shifting from 6 cylinders to 4. I think the most recent one is the 2011 Hyundai Sonata.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amoghchaphalkar View Post
I don't quite understand this "Aria is not VFM" argument. I think on most occasions VFM gets mistaken with affordability.

Is any other manufacturer offering the same features as the Aria at a price point which is below that of Aria ? If yes : then the Aria won't be VFM. At this point I don't see any other model / variant offering the same features as that of the Aria. The Aria has set a benchmark.

Let's just appreciate what Tata's have done and appreciate the product. It's too early to tell if it is value for money or not.
I agree. I also gasped a bit at the price. VFM or not the effort needs to be appreciated. I am sure the experience of making this car will flow downstream and benefit the nanos, indicas, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rjalihal View Post
@ACM: I agree with you on this. This appears to be a niche MUV in the Indian market. Better suited for the international market. Forgive my ignorance on this, but isn't Aria the only 4x4 MUV in India?
I think so too. But there seems to be a XYLO 4x4 on the works as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nirmaljusdoit View Post
At around 18L OTR in Bangalore, it just doesn't seem to make sense

One the one hand being proud that an Indian company is launching a new product & growing, on the other looking at customers who nowadays are more aware of the products they are buying, it doesn't look rosy at all for TATA.

Loads of gizmos are nice, but basic issues like body roll, inconsistent panel gaps, average paint quality & after sales service, reliability, interior fit & finish etc should be addressed. TATA should concentrate to improve on these areas without trying to divert customers attention to buy their products on the basis of 7 storage bins & other silly features.

Just look at Toyota's strength in basic engineering, their products perform perfectly where needed in basic areas of engine, transmission, suspension, braking, safety,reliabilty etc. How many issues have Tbhp members reported with their Toyota's ?

Customers are a lot more aware nowadays & its going to take more than acres of space, brand & gizmos to convince them to lay down their money on an 18L vehicle.
Are you sure about Toyota's strength in transmission, braking and safety? Seems like bad timing on your part unless you haven't followed Toyota's troubles the world over especially this year. Anyways, you should look at ARIA objectively and rate it for what it is. For one, it does not seem to suffer from panel gaps, interior fit and finish, etc. The body roll also seems much less as per the reviews that have come out.

I suggest you take a minute or two to think before bashing TATA and praising TOYOTA for the wrong reasons in regards to ARIA

Last edited by gshanky : 11th October 2010 at 23:35.
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Old 11th October 2010, 23:22   #517
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amoghchaphalkar View Post
Is any other manufacturer offering the same features as the Aria at a price point which is below that of Aria ? If yes : then the Aria won't be VFM. At this point I don't see any other model / variant offering the same features as that of the Aria. The Aria has set a benchmark.
If you judge a car only by its features, you'll be happier in an accessory shop. There is a LOT more to a car than just the bells & whistles it has.

Someone above posted about solid engineering, I could not agree anymore. What really counts is the product depth and engineering. Features are like the icing on the cake...but they don't a cake make.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VeluM View Post
If so, then I think the only thing that would prevent the Aria from selling decently would be our own hypocrisy.
I've driven the Aria and don't think its worth the price. Would I buy it? No. Where's the hypocrisy?
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Old 11th October 2010, 23:26   #518
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gshanky View Post
Currently ARIA is only available in the following states (that too only in a few limited cities)
Yes but they will still get a certain number of cars shipped for promotion and pre booking and that is the one i will be allowed to see, feel and seat in

He said that the cars will arrive soon i hope its this week. I wonder how they will promote the Aria i mean the guys had printed comparison sheets for the Manza and compared it against City maybe they will compare this against Captiva and not Innova.

But still its a bit over priced in my books i was hoping the base model to be around 11-11.5Lac cheaper or around the price of Cruze LT.

EDIT: Santa fe is suppose to come round 13-16Lac if i recall correctly its also a crossover if priced near the Aria it can murder the Aria sales.

EDIT2:

How Tata Aria fares against Toyota Innova & Mahindra Xylo


http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/...cs/6730851.cms


Tata says: Aria will take on the Mahindra XYLO and the Toyota Innova on the looks front, and the Toyota Fortuner and the GM Captiva on the performance front.


http://www.moneycontrol.com/news/cnb...rs_490492.html

Last edited by ajai_dev : 11th October 2010 at 23:36. Reason: Fixing fonts
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Old 11th October 2010, 23:45   #519
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Shanky - I did say that i feel proud of an Indian company like TATA launching new products & growing !

But when it comes to putting down hard cash on a product costing 18L, it's not a decision made emotionally alone.

Having worked with Toyota for many years,having visited production sites around the world & seeing how Toyota thinks & performs in areas of not only design, but also production, i can confidently state that the Aria will definitely be many steps lower in quality.

Its not only design, the product has to be manufactured with the best possible processes. TATA motors lacks the production efficiency & defect free performance of Toyota. just visit the production facility in Bidadi near Blore if possible to understand the pains taken by Toyota to ensure a product is built, tested & shipped to customers to exceed their expectations.

I do agree, Toyota slipped up badly in the US market with their recalls, but they did recover in a fast manner & have tackled the issues. What happened was clearly a lapse but have we heard of any other quality issues ?
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Old 11th October 2010, 23:54   #520
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
If you judge a car only by its features, you'll be happier in an accessory shop. There is a LOT more to a car than just the bells & whistles it has.
I remember the praise Honda got for making ABS (and I'm not sure, but I think airbags too) standard across all variants of the ANHC. No such points for Tata?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
I've driven the Aria and don't think its worth the price. Would I buy it? No. Where's the hypocrisy?
Exactly what I meant when I said I'd wait for the reviews. Not just one, but enough so that I get a feel of the general trend.

Not many people can afford Captivas, Outlanders and CRVs. If people who can stretch to 20L get an option at a lesser price with more "features", then why not? It is here the hypocrisy comes in. People will buy a Honda at a higher price because it is a Honda. One might argue about the Honda A.S.S, but then are Honda spares really cheap? I can't say that Aria's will be at this point, but I'm sure they'll be relatively cheaper than Honda's, as will the overall Cost of Ownership.

If someone really can buy a car worth 20L without thinking too much about it, then I can't really say that I can understand their thought process because I've never been there. I would probably still think how I can maximise the return on what I've invested - Bang for Buck.

And yes, gizmos do help sell. Electrically adjustable seats and umbrella-with-stowage are points of consideration, along with the basic comfort and convenience.

Last edited by VeluM : 11th October 2010 at 23:57.
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Old 12th October 2010, 00:04   #521
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VeluM View Post
I remember the praise Honda got for making ABS (and I'm not sure, but I think airbags too) standard across all variants of the ANHC. No such points for Tata?
Actually, Honda receives quite a bashing for its sparse equipment levels. Search

And Honda received praise when they made all their models equipped with ABS & airbags as standard equipment. Search

Quote:
Not many people can afford Captivas, Outlanders and CRVs. If people who can stretch to 20L get an option at a lesser price with more "features", then why not? It is here the hypocrisy comes in. People will buy a Honda at a higher price because it is a Honda. One might argue about the Honda A.S.S, but then are Honda spares really cheap? I can't say that Aria's will be at this point, but I'm sure they'll be relatively cheaper than Honda's, as will the overall Cost of Ownership.
Honda & Toyota command a premium price, and customers willingly pay it, for durability (among other things like all roundedness). They got here after several years of making deeply well-engineered and unbelievably reliable vehicles. Not just in India, mind you, I'm talking at the global level. My OHC Vtec didn't have a niggle at 73,000 kms. Toyota Innovas are known for their trouble free service at 1.5 lakh kms, if not 2.5 lakhs. Has Tata built a niggle-free reputation yet?

Yes, gizmos do help in selling the car, when the rest of the car meets the market's expectations. Else, Fiat would have overtaken everyone else based on equipment alone.
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Old 12th October 2010, 00:08   #522
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Good product, but clearly over optimistic pricing. I have heard the argument that this is cheaper than the Captiva/Endeavor/Fortuner/CRV set, hence is VFM. However, I am not sure I buy that argument. A Toyota or a Honda may get away with a price they think the market will pay, rather than price the product using a cost plus model (heck even they cant get away all the time - ex Jazz).
IMHO, Tata isn't there yet. They would still be better off using the cost plus model. I expect a price correction / lower end models sooner rather than later.
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Old 12th October 2010, 00:13   #523
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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Actually, Honda receives quite a bashing for its sparse equipment levels. Search
And Honda received praise when they made all their models equipped with ABS & airbags as standard equipment. Search
Yeah, I was specifically talking about the first bit. And since I knew it, didn't have to search. Would have to if I hadn't already read em

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Honda & Toyota command a premium price, and customers willingly pay it, for durability (among other things like all roundedness). They got here after several years of making deeply well-engineered and unbelievably reliable vehicles. Not just in India, mind you, I'm talking at the global level. My OHC Vtec didn't have a niggle at 73,000 kms. Toyota Innovas are known for their trouble free service at 1.5 lakh kms, if not 2.5 lakhs. Has Tata built a niggle-free reputation yet?
Yup, we first build, and price, and then develop a reputation. The Aria is still priced lower than the Hondas and Toyotas, but with (hopefully) much improved build/fit/finish, and (again hopefully) reliability.

But then maybe I shouldn't be responding to this until I have read your review. Which by the way is a long time coming. To quote Shrek, "Are we there yet?"
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Old 12th October 2010, 00:15   #524
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The promotion car is coming on the 14th to Solan, HP and they will open them up on the 14th or the 15th. I have been promised a look and even maybe a short drive around the stocking warehouse so i'll keep my hopes up and take a short test drive then will take some cellphone pictures too.
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Old 12th October 2010, 00:40   #525
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here are the pictures of E-Brochure.
1 to 11
Tata Aria : Driving Impressions. EDIT : FULL specs, features & variants on page 18-tata1.jpg

Tata Aria : Driving Impressions. EDIT : FULL specs, features & variants on page 18-tata2.jpg

Tata Aria : Driving Impressions. EDIT : FULL specs, features & variants on page 18-tata3.jpg

Tata Aria : Driving Impressions. EDIT : FULL specs, features & variants on page 18-tata4.jpg

Tata Aria : Driving Impressions. EDIT : FULL specs, features & variants on page 18-tata5.jpg

Tata Aria : Driving Impressions. EDIT : FULL specs, features & variants on page 18-tata6.jpg

Tata Aria : Driving Impressions. EDIT : FULL specs, features & variants on page 18-tata7.jpg

Tata Aria : Driving Impressions. EDIT : FULL specs, features & variants on page 18-tata8.jpg

Tata Aria : Driving Impressions. EDIT : FULL specs, features & variants on page 18-tata9.jpg

Tata Aria : Driving Impressions. EDIT : FULL specs, features & variants on page 18-tata10.jpg

Tata Aria : Driving Impressions. EDIT : FULL specs, features & variants on page 18-tata11.jpg
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