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Old 28th September 2010, 19:38   #16
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Originally Posted by aargee View Post
Again, you're missing the point; Civic is just another car in those countries, while its a premium segment here.

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No I have not missed it see post #11 Honda successfully places itself in premium segment in India so they will not do anything to dent this image.
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Old 28th September 2010, 20:50   #17
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Well, I feel that it does make value, but right now we don't have the infrastructure in place all over the country and that's being built slowly. Most major cities in Gujarat and Mumbai & Pune in Maharashtra have good infrastructure to support CNG, thus one can drive right from Mumbai to Ahmedabad on CNG. A factory fitted kit also offers the best bet rather than the retro conversion.

The system would be ECU controlled similar to the recently launched Maruti products, rather than open / closed loop systems, and offer good performance. Honda would not also have to re-invent the wheel since they already have a product in place abroad and the infrastructure to manufacture / assemble them in India. A CNG civic would have made better sense rather than their hybrids which they brought here.

A CNG operated car offers more than 62% savings v/s their petrol counterparts in a city like Mumbai. Plus the added range of petrol + CNG is a boon. Right now if I were to buy a CNG sedan, it would be the CNG SX4. An excellent product, excellent support and excellent launch timing.
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Old 28th September 2010, 21:05   #18
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Last time I checked, the CNG option on the US model costed about 4K which is 2 lakhs. IMO that's way too high.

If they can fix the price and low-end-torque issues (gearing?), then for a 1-lakh premium its worth doing. Despite the known issues, CNG seems to have found its own niche due to the low running costs. But expectations will be higher for a 15 lakh car.

Last edited by Mpower : 28th September 2010 at 21:32.
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Old 29th September 2010, 12:26   #19
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Hydrogen is not a myth. It is a reality. The infrastructure costs are prohibitive. Every OEM wants to get there - FCEV.

I am not talking in the 5-10 years time frame Screwdriva. Still, if we want to change it (doing away with ICE), we need to start proactively now, and shifting fossil fuels or toying around with biodiesel are not long term solutions.
Oh don't get me wrong, I'd LOVE a Hydrogen propulsion economy! It's just that no automaker has more than a handful of hydrogen vehicles running around in "test fleets/ leases".

Electric vehicles are definitely a step in the right direction, much better than any fossil fuel. But alas, none are available in our great country (unless you count the crappy Reva-i). Even Hybrids are prohibitively priced, thanks largely due to the mass Myopia of our government!

I can only speak for Mumbai and Delhi when I say that CNG fuel supply is not a problem. I've driven an Optra CNG for the last 4 years and will never go back to conventional petrol again.


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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
The Civic CNG doesn't make sense at all. Here's why:

- It anyways has the smallest boot. IMHO, it's less usable than even the ANHC.

- The Civic suffers from poor low end torque, and thus driveability. CNG will further deteriorate in-city performance.

- Regular supply of CNG poses its own challenges in India. In addition, how many cities have CNG pumps?

Honda should instead focus on launching some great diesels.
Honda doesn't have great diesels. It has only one diesel, the 2.2L, and they've been on the fence about launching it here for years now.

The points you mention as drawbacks have been known to CNG users for a decade. I lost more than half my boot space and 15% of the Optra 1.6L performance when I installed GM's official CNG kit. But man-o-man do I love saving 60% of my monthly fuel bills

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Originally Posted by aargee View Post
Availablity of petrol? There's no scarcity as yet. But if you mean CNG, I would say, then the engine has to be worked upon a lot, a real lot to power up to match the petrol engine in terms of power.
No scarcity? Have you not been reading about the global oil supply issues? Crude oil at historic highs etc. etc.? Add India's ability to produce only 30% of the nation's demand of crude and then CNG becomes a more sensible option instantly.

Last edited by Screwdriva : 29th September 2010 at 12:27.
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Old 30th September 2010, 11:44   #20
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Originally Posted by Screwdriva View Post
Honda doesn't have great diesels. It has only one diesel, the 2.2L, and they've been on the fence about launching it here for years now.
They should do a Maruti. If you don't have diesel technology in-house, outsource! Look at the success Maruti has achieved with Fiat's 1.3 MJD. IIRC, Honda did use a smaller Isuzu diesel for the Civic in Europe.

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The points you mention as drawbacks have been known to CNG users for a decade.
True. But my point was, some cars are better suited to CNG usage. Example : The Corolla. Excellent low end torque. A Corolla CNG has better driveability than a stock Civic (first hand experience).
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Old 30th September 2010, 12:12   #21
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I feel that a Civic customer will not be too much bothered about running cost and gas prices, Civic is associated with style, luxury, status and brand. In my opinion if a person is really looking for low running cost then he should look at fuel efficient hatchbacks instead of sedans.

Going CNG has its own advantages and disadvantages which is already discussed in this forum.
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Old 14th October 2010, 22:44   #22
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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
They should do a Maruti. If you don't have diesel technology in-house, outsource! Look at the success Maruti has achieved with Fiat's 1.3 MJD. IIRC, Honda did use a smaller Isuzu diesel for the Civic in Europe.
Ironically, Toyota did pull a Maruti. They tied up with MINDA to supply CNG kits for the Corolla and Innova. Sadly, they no longer supply Petrol engined cars to all their dealers readily, which means you have to order one, then wait for 3 months and then send it to MINDA for retrofitting of the CNG components. And after all that, you don't get any Toyota warranty coverage on the CNG components of the car. Just a MINDA warranty and who knows what that's worth?

What a horrible execution of an otherwise excellent idea!

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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
True. But my point was, some cars are better suited to CNG usage. Example : The Corolla. Excellent low end torque. A Corolla CNG has better driveability than a stock Civic (first hand experience).
I'm sure the Corolla CNG drives great in CNG mode. My Optra's driving characteristics are great when driven on CNG but my point is that we'll never know what the Honda CNG drives like 'cause they don't sell it here, despite having a factory designed, implemented and easily importable kit ready!

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Originally Posted by tj123 View Post
I feel that a Civic customer will not be too much bothered about running cost and gas prices, Civic is associated with style, luxury, status and brand. In my opinion if a person is really looking for low running cost then he should look at fuel efficient hatchbacks instead of sedans.
If Corolla Altis owners can buy CNG and Diesel powerplants in the interests of economy, then why can't Civic owners? They are global competitors ya know!

It's only a matter of time till CNG permiates into the upper segments. People get really sore when they're paying 60% more money for hardly any advantage! Honda India should capitalize on their American division's R&D!
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Old 15th October 2010, 00:04   #23
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Coming from an in-law background of Gas kit manufacturers and retro-fitters, I say the Corolla after conversion to a Sequential CNG kit runs almost as equivalent in terms of efficiency to a petrol, with almost no loss of power.
Whereas, with the Civic as mentioned by GTO, the low-end torque does pose a problem when shifting up/down from the second and third gears and flooring the pedal. The car has a distinguished jerk and takes a while for the driver to learn to use a lighter foot to correct it. I should mention I have not installed a TAP on the Civic as of now. And that could just as well be the culprit.

I am running our in-house manufactured sequential CNG kits with ECU's imported from EU on both our cars - Civic and Corolla, and the Corolla takes the cake if we're talking about performance and boot-space. Smooth pickup, respectable gas mileage, easier installation and you still get to use 60% of the already enormous boot. The Civic's engine, makes you feel as if its probably not cut out for any sort of retrofitting of a CNG kit. And yes, a 12 kg tank does take up a whooping 75-80% of the Civic's boot!

However, I was recently in conversation with one of the Honda dealers and it did come up that Honda India MIGHT and PROBABLY SHOULD consider to bring in the Honda CNG OEM CIVIC and the JAZZ Hybrid sometime next year. So that maybe something to look forward to
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Old 18th October 2010, 15:02   #24
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That sounds like great news! I'm not sure if the OEM CNG Civic will suffer from the same issues you describe, for purely logical reasons.

1) Its sold in the US, a primarily performance oriented country. I doubt they'd be ok with jerky throttle responses

2) Honda is pretty obsessed with their alternative fuel vehicles being hiccup free. I'm quite optimistic that a factory fitted kit won't suffer from the same issues that 3rd party kits do.

Out of curiousity, have you tried the SX4 CNG? Any thoughts?
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Old 18th October 2010, 15:49   #25
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I do not think the 'average' Civic buyer will have much interest in a CNG version. One of the major features of the Civic is the powerful high revving engine. A CNG conversion will emasculate it!
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Old 18th October 2010, 16:24   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Screwdriva View Post
That sounds like great news! I'm not sure if the OEM CNG Civic will suffer from the same issues you describe, for purely logical reasons.

1) Its sold in the US, a primarily performance oriented country. I doubt they'd be ok with jerky throttle responses

2) Honda is pretty obsessed with their alternative fuel vehicles being hiccup free. I'm quite optimistic that a factory fitted kit won't suffer from the same issues that 3rd party kits do.

Out of curiousity, have you tried the SX4 CNG? Any thoughts?
Matter of fact I have. Unlike the Civic's I-VTEC which probably doesn't support alternative fuel, we've tried, tested and perfected the settings on our own SX4 and have successfully kitted others on the Sequential injection. It runs a like a beauty. Zero problems.

Just to state since we're on a Civic oriented thread, the Civic runs fine without any problems on the regular conventional kit.
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