Go Back   Team-BHP > BHP India > The Indian Car Scene


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 12th November 2010, 16:42   #16
BHPian
 
rejoycjohn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Bangalore / Calicut
Posts: 442
Thanked: 708 Times
Default

I really dint quite get the point that the minister was trying to make .

1- Diesel should not be subsidized as luxury car makers are selling a lot of them running on diesel
-- In that case , you should do the same for all cars right ? Why only luxury cars . In india still 70% are below poverty line and are not in a position to afford any car for that matter . If he is looking forward to restrict 'misuse' of diesel then he should avoid any car maker in India using it in any of its cars !

2-Diesel has more carbon foot prints ?
--BS4 norms being same for all cars irrespective( correct me if I am wrong ) of its segment would this matter ? And if i look back my mech engineering books , I understand that the more you burn a fuel efficiently , less harmful would the exhaust be . The mileage or the power output that a 1.4/2 L diesel is giving means that the engine is well designed to churn the most out of litre of the fuel .

All that I see in this statement is that he is just trying to make a division between those people who can afford the luxury cars and those just own a car or even those who cant even afford a car ! Basically a political stunt .

End of the day they are here to do that as part of their profile anyway .

Cheers
rejoycjohn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th November 2010, 16:45   #17
BHPian
 
Exhaust_Note's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Goa
Posts: 169
Thanked: 18 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rejoycjohn View Post
I really dint quite get the point that the minister was trying to make .
No offence meant to any office, but thats what happens when you have not done enough homework before a speech.

But, I would rather take out the good and push it than splitting the statement apart a 100 times.
Exhaust_Note is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th November 2010, 16:53   #18
Senior - BHPian
 
aargee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: KATN
Posts: 4,694
Thanked: 2,115 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sgiitk View Post
He should migrate to the bicycle or Cycle Rickshaw, and travel only by train, or (of course) bullock cart.
+1

Quote:
Originally Posted by srishiva View Post
It is good to work against pollution but we should not be selective.
+1

If I were to agree with him, then, let us start first with all the Govt jeeps & public transports. These vehicles are neither upgraded to latest technology nor maintained well; result? Highly pollutant vehicle, may be 50 such BMW/Audi will contribute to 1 Govt vehicle's equivalent of pollution.

Also look at the statement he makes...
Quote:
need to provide subsidy on LPG to help the farmers," he said
so should we have tractors running on LPG?

I guess this guy is unable to afford a BMW/Audi & even if he does, afraid of IT.

OT - I guess farming is going to take a big leap in India & hence most ministers would've invested heavily in this sector & hence such type statements.

Last edited by aargee : 12th November 2010 at 16:55.
aargee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th November 2010, 16:58   #19
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Vizag
Posts: 1,982
Thanked: 1,338 Times
Default

Come on guys! What minister must have meant was, Beems and Auds are not for "aam janta" but ministerial elite. Hence, others shouldn't buy.
pgsagar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th November 2010, 17:37   #20
Senior - BHPian
 
stanjohn123's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: TN 75
Posts: 1,063
Thanked: 392 Times
Angry Govt. better attend to other problems

What a joke this is, why isn't the government taking into account first of all that these luxury car owners are paying 120 % of the car's price as tax to the government(Govt. is easily earning around 30-50 Lakhs from each car). I think it would cover up the subsidy and still would have enough for the govt. to munch on. Anyways the govt. is not going to use that money in developing our infrastructure.

On pollution , as rightly said in the below posts, first let the govt. reduce the use of diesel in all govt. institutions like for police cars and generators or whatever. It's not right if the govt. is always going to target the upper class for making more money.
stanjohn123 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th November 2010, 17:38   #21
CPH
BHPian
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: London
Posts: 577
Thanked: 33 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by wbd8779 View Post
And AFAIK he never said that we should not buy BMW"s and Audis"s, this has just been hyped up by the so called "news channels" . Also i think that all the vehicles that i have seen in Delhi VIP convoys are very recent models of the ambassador , which atleast will confirm to BS3 norms, i fail to understand your point about pollution as an ambassador and a BMW both of which confirm to BS 3/4 will pollute the same.
Conforming to the same standards does not mean that they pollute the same neither in theory nor in practical terms.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fi.robin View Post
Exactly. It is time we found a solution the subsidy saga. Subsidy on diesel is primarily meant for farming equipments and public transport and not for luxury cars.
Farmers are a very important part of any economy. They obviously need help and should be given such. But it doex not make sense to subsudise Diesel for the farmers when everyone else gets the same for a much different course. Instead the government could give them per square meter used for crop and feeding ground for live stock.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sgiitk View Post
He should migrate to the bicycle or Cycle Rickshaw, and travel only by train, or (of course) bullock cart.
I agree. Otherwise they should stop to make unecessary visit all over the world etc.

Also he could do something that the big cities get traffic moving. The lack of will to organise the traffic in a city like Mumbai alone cost the car users many crore of Ruppes every year in wasted fuel. For this half the farmers could be 'drowned@ in free Diesel and the corbon foot print dramatically reduced and the life quality in all the cities would rise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by akaush View Post
I wonder how many of these luxury cars are on roads - 0.1% and how much effect will it make on emissions by not giving subsidies to the people who drive these cars.

Being a minister he should be more critical about things that affect the masses. Although I am a big fan of some of his decisions on environment projects, this statement was not really needed. He should be more worried about things that affect the masses.
Very few cars are in the luxury segment are on the roads. I am very environmentally oriented too. And I agree with you that it needs looking into the real issues rather than making such an immature comment, which I would have more likely expected to com from George W. Bush.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wbd8779 View Post
I Dont understand this clearly sir , pls go through the article posted by the thread starter , Jairam ramesh was speaking about diesel being used as the fuel for luxury/premium cars in this country , which is NOT the intended use as it is subsidized for Farming/transportation purposes.
The minister was clearly out of order and obviously has lost the plot. I do understand the statement very well. To lower the carbon foot print you are not trying to clip the some minor (insignificant) contributors. You have to pull the roots out. Get a system into transport would be a good start and force manufacturers to higher standards, which do not end up in environmental time bombs like the Toyota Prius etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by n.devdath View Post
Irrespective of subsidies, it is a well known fact that more and more cars are using diesel fuel across the world and hence most modern engines are diesel engines. BMW/Mercedes are not "pushing" their diesel cars into India because of its subsidy.
Moreover, do you think that a customer who pays 30-100 lac INR for a car will mind the INR 10.00 difference between petrol and diesel per liter?

I m surprised to see such short sighted and narrow minded statements coming from people like him. There are many more issues. Let me list a few:

How many of the BMTC/BEST/DTC buses are non polluting? Not on paper but in the real world.

How many cars that our Govt machinery uses are non polluting and do not steal/sell the diesel that is put into their tanks?


What about the insane amount fuel that is burnt to keep generators running at Govt offices for our babus and ministers at all times?

Wouldn't it be better if Delhi police used cheaper and more efficient hard top Boleros instead of their ageing, polluting Gypsys?

How many autos running across the country do not pollute?

There is all this and more which he can look into if he really wants to curb automotive fuel misuse and pollution levels.
You hit the nail on the head. Looks like aminister needing to make a point to justify the importance for him being in office.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Exhaust_Note View Post
I do 100% agree that rules should be made to ensure that the diesel subsidy reaches only to the ones that are meant for. It is not the question of the percentage or number of private oil burners on the road. All diesel cars (indica included) should have a annual diesel subsidy recovery tax. How to calculate the tax is a question, it can be a combination of usage type (Tourist/ Commercial vs private) and cost of the car.

That said, the authorities should also ensure that their vehicles are non-polluting. Even without looking for them you see 10s and 100s of Light and Heavy commercial vehicles spewing smoke and pollutants, both govt. and private alike.

It is good to work against pollution but we should not be selective.
But the problem is that someone actually has got to get the brains into gear, which politicians all over the world seem to have problems with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Exhaust_Note View Post
No offence meant to any office, but thats what happens when you have not done enough homework before a speech.

But, I would rather take out the good and push it than splitting the statement apart a 100 times.
Politicians very rarely do their homework. This is why most affairs in the world go from bad to worse.

Of course we should do something about pollution, but not on rediciluos statements based on ideas that won't have any impact whatsoever,

I am not a fan of electric vehicles nor hybrid vehicles as they have enough of problems to deal with with the current technologies available. But if the whole of India would be converted to energy efficient lighting (not Chinese bulbs!), how many electric trains could be run on it? A shocking amount.

What about energy efficient brown and white stuff?

What about encouraging manufacturers to produce energy efficient cars? Volkswagen produced a Lupo that they claimed it does retun at least 33kpl. When tested to the surprise of the testers it returned 42kpl in daily use! But it was a bit more expensive and all the environmentalist did not want to buy it!?!

There is many more areas to look in, which would require a bit of effort, but we humans are just too lazy to grab the bull by the horns.
CPH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th November 2010, 17:54   #22
Senior - BHPian
 
tsk13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: New Delhi
Posts: 1,233
Thanked: 278 Times
Thumbs down Use of SUVs in India Criminal says Jairam Ramesh (Environment Minister)

Quote:
Carrying forward his green agenda, environment minister Jairam Ramesh wants gas guzzling Sports Utility Vehicles (SUVs) off Indian roads saying they emitt more carbons and called their use in the country as "criminal".

Suggesting that the luxury SUVs survived on subsidized diesel, Ramesh also said there should be a reformed diesel policy as the real beneficiaries of the subsidy are the owners of the "BMWs, the Benzs and Hondas" and not farmers.

"The luxurious growth of large-size vehicles like SUVs is really a growth of concern... use of vehicles like SUVs and BMW in countries like India is criminal," Ramesh said at a UN function here.
Entire text available at - Use of SUVs in India criminal says Jairam Ramesh - India - DNA

I don't appreciate the choice of words which the minister has chosen. A person of his stature is suppose to exhibit high levels of intelligence and be prudent in their statements. Terming the use of SUVs as criminal just because a certain segment runs on Subsidized Diesel is totally inapt. Further, the minister says that owners of Hondas benefit from Subsidized Diesel. I would request the Minister to show me one Jazz, City, Civic, Accord or CRV owner who fills Diesel in his car.

Minister seems to be particularly miffed with Teuton BMW and it makes me think that he hasn't seen a Petrol run BMW ever. Going by what I've heard, these luxuries don't return praiseworthy Fuel Economy figures but targeting any particular brand is no good either.

The minister further adds that SUV's can be a recipe for Disaster like the US. US had large chunk of fuel guzzling Hummers where-as in India, the number is miniscule. I've seen people who are happy with the Fuel Economy of their Diesel SUV's (the mainstream ones). After reading the entire text, I'm still confused over whether the minister terms Diesel SUV's as criminal on the basis of Fuel Economy, Emissions, Diesel Subsidy etc.

Quote:
"We are worried and we are looking at how to control these emissions from transport sector. For this to happen, there should be mandatory fuel efficiency standards," he said.
Minister, with respect to Emissions we already have global standards such as 'Euro' and National Standard 'Bharat Stage'. I'm appalled by the way he takes a dig at SUVs inspite of being ill-informed.

Last edited by tsk13 : 12th November 2010 at 17:55.
tsk13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th November 2010, 18:38   #23
BHPian
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 334
Thanked: 49 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Parm View Post
the hon minister should know that the 10-15 year old commercial vehicles like diesel threewheelers, buses, trucks etc pollute more than the private vehicles (SUVs).

because these commercial vehicles end up using adultrated diesel (mixed with kerosene) and hardly undergo fitness tests and use old engine technology.

if all the commerical vehicles are properly taken care of, it will certainly reduce the carbon footprint considerably in India.
But how will that make news? You need some masala right. BMW and AUDI is the masala . Attack the rich, sympathize with poor and do nothing .

Last edited by fi.robin : 12th November 2010 at 18:40.
fi.robin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th November 2010, 18:50   #24
BHPian
 
anonymous's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: NCR
Posts: 564
Thanked: 15 Times
Default

He has clearly mentioned that he cannot ask people to buy or not to buy a particular car. But through an effective fiscal policy, we can certainly have an impact," he said and I think he is right, this subsidies are meant for public transports, farmers and not for someone who buys a luxary (Or Non Luxary cars) just because the diesel comes cheap.
anonymous is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th November 2010, 19:01   #25
Senior - BHPian
 
AbhiJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Kolkata
Posts: 1,298
Thanked: 462 Times
Default

Ramesh also said there should be a reformed diesel policy as the real beneficiaries of the subsidy are the owners of the "BMWs, the Benzs and Hondas" and not farmers.

Honda doesnt sell diesels in India!

The whole statement is a joke ... and is full of more holes than swisscheese...

First Option: If he is so unhappy with SUVs, gas guzzlers, he should suggest a different tax structure for cars... Where the road tax is inversely proportionate to the ARIA Fuel Eff. Figures.

Second option: Remove diesel subsidy.



[/COLOR]
AbhiJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th November 2010, 19:34   #26
Senior - BHPian
 
avishar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: kolkata/bangalore,india
Posts: 2,411
Thanked: 686 Times
Default

As a high ranking minister and high profile one at that he has the freedom to say what he wants.BUT he should have refrained from mentioning names like BMW,benz and honda which is clearly and absolutely incorrect.
Not only these manufacturers use cutting edge technology to reduce emmissions,its not like they ONLY make diesel SUVS.

Thats like a false allegation,and he has no right to hurt a companies image according to his whims and bad homework.
avishar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th November 2010, 20:28   #27
Distinguished - BHPian
 
anjan_c2007's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: India
Posts: 5,530
Thanked: 4,687 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsk13 View Post
Entire text available at - Use of SUVs in India criminal says Jairam Ramesh - India - DNA

I don't appreciate the choice of words which the minister has chosen. A person of his stature is suppose to exhibit high levels of intelligence and be prudent in their statements. Terming the use of SUVs as criminal just because a certain segment runs on Subsidized Diesel is totally inapt. Further, the minister says that owners of Hondas benefit from Subsidized Diesel. I would request the Minister to show me one Jazz, City, Civic, Accord or CRV owner who fills Diesel in his car.

Minister seems to be particularly miffed with Teuton BMW and it makes me think that he hasn't seen a Petrol run BMW ever. Going by what I've heard, these luxuries don't return praiseworthy Fuel Economy figures but targeting any particular brand is no good either.

The minister further adds that SUV's can be a recipe for Disaster like the US. US had large chunk of fuel guzzling Hummers where-as in India, the number is miniscule. I've seen people who are happy with the Fuel Economy of their Diesel SUV's (the mainstream ones). After reading the entire text, I'm still confused over whether the minister terms Diesel SUV's as criminal on the basis of Fuel Economy, Emissions, Diesel Subsidy etc.


Minister, with respect to Emissions we already have global standards such as 'Euro' and National Standard 'Bharat Stage'. I'm appalled by the way he takes a dig at SUVs inspite of being ill-informed.
The Hon"ble Minister should first do his homework and come out with figures.
Of the thousands of people's representatives (elected and holding public positions) at the Union Territory,State and Central levels, most of them are obsessed with the ownership of diesel motor vehicles be it a UV, MUV,SUV luxury car or anything else.Its a different fact that coming to the ownership papers, they own none of these in their own names, in a majority of cases.
They win elections using diesel powered motor vehicles through which they run their election campaigns.
Is all that criminal?
anjan_c2007 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th November 2010, 20:43   #28
BHPian
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: miami. fl
Posts: 435
Thanked: 134 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by n.devdath View Post
Discourage sale of BMWs, Audis, says Jairam - The Times of India

One more classic case of a senior minister trying to pull India back to its protectionist days.

I m pretty sure that the minister's cavalcade of scores of ageing Ambassadors pollutes much more than the BMWs and Audis that he is ranting against.
I support Mr. Ramesh 100%. Those people who are bashing him did not read the artivle completely. He was mainly talking about having mandatory fuel efficiency standards in india. What's wrong with that. Remember he is the environment minister. He only took BMW, Audi and honda as an example. There should be a milleage tax in all countries not only india.


Having subsidy in any form or place is start of a bigger problem.

Last edited by airbender : 12th November 2010 at 20:59.
airbender is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th November 2010, 20:48   #29
Senior - BHPian
 
speedmiester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: bangalore
Posts: 1,315
Thanked: 823 Times
Default

I would welcome any move by the government to impose additional tax structure for private cars run by diesel. But this is not the way to go about it.
First get your facts right Mr. Minister then you talk. All you have done right now is smeared your own face by giving illogical statements.
Instead of targeting a particular brand of vehicles, you could have just ascertained your intentions by using simple and logical sentences. But no, you have to make a big tamasha of yourself and hog the limelight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by anjan_c2007 View Post
They win elections using diesel powered motor vehicles through which they run their election campaigns.
Is all that criminal?
Yes it is and yes they are. and actually I am not
speedmiester is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th November 2010, 20:51   #30
BHPian
 
Anandg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 293
Thanked: 15 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by anjan_c2007 View Post
The Hon"ble Minister should first do his homework and come out with figures.
Of the thousands of people's representatives (elected and holding public positions) at the Union Territory,State and Central levels, most of them are obsessed with the ownership of diesel motor vehicles be it a UV, MUV,SUV luxury car or anything else.Its a different fact that coming to the ownership papers, they own none of these in their own names, in a majority of cases.
They win elections using diesel powered motor vehicles through which they run their election campaigns.
Is all that criminal?
I fully agree with the above statement. God has given politicians a mouth which they always use to speak rubbish. With their meager salary they will never be able to afford these luxury cars but look at them, they have own the largest fleet of luxury cars in the world by all ill-gotten money/ looting taxpayers hard earned money. Instead of saying nonsense they should make standards like limiting old and polluting vehicles > 15yrs off road, standards for acceptable pollutants of commercial vehicles, railway electrification, curbing industrial pollution from diesel consuming factories, having super efficient public transport like well engineered Buses etc. so that rate of consumption will reduce along with less pollution for our children to breath in. Politicians should rename them selves as crows instead of leaders as they are only pushing us to dark ages by their acts.
Anandg is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
"Good day, I am interested in a test drive"...."Sorry sir, we don't have a car for TD" Dippy Indian Car Dealerships 181 11th December 2017 17:48
"Cayenne" we "XC-eed" in our "Endeavour" to "Safari"? Taking powerful metal off-road SS-Traveller 4x4 Excursions 55 10th November 2016 22:56
Phones shaped like Audis and BMWs bottle Shifting gears 3 2nd March 2009 18:23


All times are GMT +5.5. The time now is 01:03.

Copyright 2000 - 2017, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks