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Old 12th November 2010, 20:58   #31
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Originally Posted by Anandg View Post
I fully agree with the above statement. God has given politicians a mouth which they always use to speak rubbish. With their meager salary they will never be able to afford these luxury cars but look at them, they have own the largest fleet of luxury cars in the world by all ill-gotten money/ looting taxpayers hard earned money. Instead of saying nonsense they should make standards like limiting old and polluting vehicles > 15yrs off road, standards for acceptable pollutants of commercial vehicles, railway electrification, curbing industrial pollution from diesel consuming factories, having super efficient public transport like well engineered Buses etc. so that rate of consumption will reduce along with less pollution for our children to breath in. Politicians should rename them selves as crows instead of leaders as they are only pushing us to dark ages by their acts.
You should know more about Mr.Ramesh. He lived in DC metro area in US for more than 10 years but did not own a vehicle. He always used the metro.

Concentrate on the original message(mandatory fuel efficiency standards)
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Old 12th November 2010, 21:26   #32
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I totally agree with airbender's comment.The thread has gone haywire about the point of being BMW mentioned without actually trying to figure out what the minister was trying to convey.

More than the environmental impact, I think he was trying to point out the economic impact on the country because of people misusing the fuel subsidy, BMW was merely used as an example for pointing out that people with money also buy diesel vehicles and these luxuries don't necessarily help the economy.

The same applies for people who buy Swifts,Fortuners,Superbs and the likes, these are not exactly poor people and what they do is just increase the burden on the govt. exchequer. Its not like the manufacturers don't offer petrol variants of these vehicle,but the customer chooses to go for the diesel variant instead.

IMHO, the only way to get around this is to enforce a diesel tax on these private use vehicles or the easier way out will be to ban the use of diesel vehicles for private use.

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Old 12th November 2010, 21:26   #33
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What a joke this is, why isn't the government taking into account first of all that these luxury car owners are paying 120 % of the car's price as tax to the government(Govt. is easily earning around 30-50 Lakhs from each car). I think it would cover up the subsidy and still would have enough for the govt. to munch on.
Totally agree with that viewpoint. The minister should have taken that into account. Plus the overall proportion of fuel consumed by these so called fuel guzzlers is hardly an alarming number.

The government should focus more on other issues. Why not LPG. That is also highly subsidized to make it affordable for the poor. But all of us use the it and so many people even use the subsidized LPG for commercial purposes.
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Old 12th November 2010, 21:57   #34
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I have gone through the thread in detail since it started i the afternoon , and i have a few points for my fellow bhpians.

How many of us own a diesel car or SUV , lets take a figure of 50% , why did we buy diesel because it is the cheaper fuel , NOT because t has lesser emits less polluting gases or because of any love for the Govt of India or the honorable minister.

In a lot of posts in this tread there seems to be a trend of just blaming the govt for all the worries that besiege this country , while we are equally to blame.
How many of us bought the Petrol model of the Scorpio over the diesel , or the petrol Safari , even with a car like the laura we ignore (kind of) the TSI and buy the PD/TDI motor in droves . Please have a look at the sales figures and you will see that nearly all the models that have petrol/Diesel engine options , the diesel is clearly the best seller. As normal citizens of this country we have immensely benefited from the subsidy that is provided to diesel, which is primarily meant for the agricultural/transport sectors
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Old 12th November 2010, 22:21   #35
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In a country where you subsidize anything and everything including politicians (remember the solution suggested by the Hon. PM to resolve women's reservation- increase the size of the Parliament?), why can't the taxpayers (who was even made to pay tax for withdrawing their money from banks) make all these subsidies possible be allowed to drive a BMW SUV which consume less fuel than a typical Contessa Classic with subsidized Diesel?

Mr. JR, well intentioned you may be, tends to get carried away by the green bug that has bitten you. Sir., look into the Madam's car park: a stretched Range Rover. Then the PM's fleet: BMW's even as escorts cars! And all the President's cars: Grosser Pullmans. Try levying a Fringe Benefit Tax for using these vehicles based on their rental value. Or a congestion charge for the blocks and fines for the disruptions to normal life they cause while moving around. You Sir, are "worried and we are looking at how to control these emissions from transport sector". May I ask if you meant all those RTC buses around the country?


OT: During a debate, some young MP's even talked of measuring the "carbon footprints" (!) of government buildings!

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Old 12th November 2010, 23:05   #36
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The irony is that the people who tend to buy Audi's or BMW SUV tend to have an affiliation with the govt, or at least have some influence with them!

But in all seriousness, Mr. Ramesh should not be too concerned. The LSUV market is still puny despite its growth potential. Remember that less than 1% of the Indian population can actually afford a luxury car, let alone a premium SUV
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Old 12th November 2010, 23:21   #37
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I can only agree if "One Country one price" is followed by Govt, why Delhi has 51 rupee tag on petrol and Bangalore 60??? Not because I own a diesel car now but its very easy for Govt to punish the common man before correcting their act. Why can't Govt depts use more fuel efficient vehicle? Anyways Diesel cars are always less polluting than petrol(read it in an article sometimes back).
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Old 12th November 2010, 23:30   #38
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This is one of the first threads that i have read fully from the first to the last . Sometimes , i have to admit that Team-bhp is more sensational than the hordes of news channels with female reporters talking non -stop . I just hate Barkha dutt for trying to make something sensational , kindlling emotions rather than the mind .. hmmm

Forget Jairam Ramesh ,

Lets take the cost of diesel and petrol ,gas for the govt and the oil companies . what is the actual cost at the refinery ? How much do state govt earn ? Who gave the central leaders and state leaders the permission to give free "gas connections " for x lakh people ? The people in the villages do not need LPG as firewood is avaliable and without any cost as well , but for the sake of votes .. just give them LPG connections and that too at a ridiculous price . Well, developement is good , but not at the expense of the middle class or even the rich class . Developement should come by way of providing more facilities for industries , but here the politicians make money by selling land , water , EB to industries and finally the industries end up not supporting the local talent .

Going by todays prices , the TN govt offers 1 re. Rice per KG , how is this financed ? Free dresses , spices , subsidised LPG for people below poverty line etc .

Now , I sweat my A**S off everyday , have to pay my bills , live a decent life , pay rent and try to save a few rupees every month . I am above the poverty line , yet I am unable to afford something more than an entry level cellphone , try very hard to maintain my bike by allocating a budget .

But i am surprised that the people below poverty line are able to afford mid - high end cell phones , have better bikes like the pulsars , karizmas .SUV like sumos , scorpios , safaris etc . They have their own houses given by the govt . They get rice at an incredible price of Re.1 per KG , when i have to buy the same quality of rice for not less than Rs 20.

So thinking of all this it is just a farce that the diesel is subsidised . subsidy = govt not making the expected amount of money that it should be making by selling a litre of diesel than it is actually .

So it is high time to stop zeroing on Jairam ramesh , and I personally feel he is another Sashi Tharoor .
We as citizens have a collective responsibility of developing the nation , developing ourselves and also caring for the poor . BUT , that does not mean we can let politicians make the middle class and the rich class the scape goats for their own perverted means and ends .
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Old 12th November 2010, 23:47   #39
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Originally Posted by asdon View Post
I can only agree if "One Country one price" is followed by Govt, why Delhi has 51 rupee tag on petrol and Bangalore 60??? Not because I own a diesel car now but its very easy for Govt to punish the common man before correcting their act. Why can't Govt depts use more fuel efficient vehicle? Anyways Diesel cars are always less polluting than petrol(read it in an article sometimes back).
The reason for this is state tax rates are different, Karnataka has more state sales tax than say punjab, same as road tax is 2% in punjab and maybe 10% of vehicle cost in Bangalore. But it cuts both ways, salaries would be more in bangalore than say punjab in private sector.


As far as the topic goes, I absolutely agree with the idea behind Jairam Ramesh's comments.


"I think, we seriously need to think about fuel policy regime," he said.

The Minister said there should be a reformed diesel policy as the real beneficiaries of the diesel subsidy are the owners of the "BMWs, the Benzs and Hondas" and not farmers.

"We are subsidising diesel. We have reformed policy as far as petrol is concerned. We are yet to reform as far as the net effect of diesel subsidy is concerned," he said
.

These days private diesel vehicles are available right from Rs 3.7 lacs till several millions of Rupees. Why should diesel be subsidised for them? A person buying a Rs 15 -20 lac SUV or a sedan can jolly well afford to pay Rs 20 more per litre for fuel. Subsidies can not be eliminated in a developing economy but what could be done is to target them at the right segment.

The need of the hour is to deregulate diesel for the private vehicles and only the commercial segment like Bus, truck, tractors, agricultural pumpsets running on diesel should be given subsidies and not the burgeoning mass of private diesel vehicles. The tricky thing is how to prevent pilferage and black marketing. Another idea could be to load new diesel vehicles with one time tax.

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Old 13th November 2010, 00:24   #40
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I think the Minister is just trying to start a discussion on reforming diesel prices and the current situation.
It should be taken to discuss it forward and not to bash the Minister. Lets see if we can discuss the issue rather than blaming the govt for other things.
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Old 13th November 2010, 00:46   #41
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Default sensationalism rules in india

sensationalism rules in india.

Thanks to that the real issue never gets discussed or addressed.

THe title of this thread says:
Dont buy BMWs & Audis":Jairam Ramesh

Mr. Ramesh says(from the link posted on the thread):

"We cannot ask people to buy or not to buy a particular car. But through an effective fiscal policy, we can certainly have an impact,"

I ask the person who created this thread where did Mr. Ramesh say don't buy BMW's & Audi's. If India is a country where law & order works Mr. Ramesh can indeed sue you. Don't know by what logic you are bringing protectionalism here.

Coming to the original topic, he was talking about the need to have mandatory fuel efficiency standards for all automakers. He was only taking BMW and Audi as a example.

Last time I read a report about our fuel imports they consist of more than 50% of our import bill. I think he was talking about a very nice subject and a must to have reform.

Those who talk about old amby's or premier's are doing more harm than good. Two wrongs don't make a right.

Finally, don't shoot the messenger(Mr. Ramesh) and forget the message.
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Old 13th November 2010, 01:06   #42
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Originally Posted by airbender View Post
I ask the person who created this thread where did Mr. Ramesh say don't buy BMW's & Audi's. If India is a country where law & order works Mr. Ramesh can indeed sue you. Don't know by what logic you are bringing protectionalism here.
I believe his exact statement was ...

"The luxurious growth of large-size vehicles like SUVs is really a growth of concern... use of vehicles like SUVs and BMW in countries like India is criminal"

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Old 13th November 2010, 01:21   #43
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I believe his exact statement was ...

"The luxurious growth of large-size vehicles like SUVs is really a growth of concern... use of vehicles like SUVs and BMW in countries like India is criminal"
Criminal in the sense they are using subsidised diesel. Not that they cannot be allowed to sell.

Why don't we calulate average FE and for cars less than the average tax them higher. If you need luxury prepared to pay more.
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Old 13th November 2010, 01:30   #44
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Originally Posted by airbender View Post
Criminal in the sense they are using subsidised diesel. Not that they cannot be allowed to sell.

Why don't we calulate average FE and for cars less than the average tax them higher. If you need luxury prepared to pay more.
Thats an acceptable solution, and I would not mind the same.. provided that extra tax money gets routed to doing something beneficial for the environment and not lining minister pockets.

Btw.. OT

Mr Ramesh, does not believe in regular IC cars / ethanol as an alternative fuel / electric cars. Is he waiting for the Fuel Cell tech?

I agree with him that if the electricity for the electric cars comes from conventional sources, it is a pointless exercise, but shouldnt we explore clean sources of energy to produce that electricity... i.e wind/solar/hydro?
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Old 13th November 2010, 01:39   #45
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Originally Posted by AbhiJ View Post
Thats an acceptable solution, and I would not mind the same.. provided that extra tax money gets routed to doing something beneficial for the environment and not lining minister pockets.

Btw.. OT

Mr Ramesh, does not believe in regular IC cars / ethanol as an alternative fuel / electric cars. Is he waiting for the Fuel Cell tech?

I agree with him that if the electricity for the electric cars comes from conventional sources, it is a pointless exercise, but shouldnt we explore clean sources of energy to produce that electricity... i.e wind/solar/hydro?
I believe the ultimate environment friendly solution will be fuel cells. But in the mean while hybrids/alternate fuels and electrics will be short term option.
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