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Old 15th November 2010, 09:51   #76
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I think Jairam Ramesh has been one of the better env ministers till date.
I was of the same opinion too, till I saw this irresponsible and uninformed statement of his. I guess populism is hard not to get attracted to.
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Old 15th November 2010, 09:56   #77
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I think Jairam Ramesh has been one of the better env ministers till date.
+1 to that. His point here was only regarding two things, though the communication was not upto the mark -

1. Big SUVs which guzzle diesel does pollute more than normal cars. Once these vehicles becomes hugely popular, they can be used by one or two passengers, often increasing the pollution per person seriously (as in the case of most US states).

2. Diesel is subsidised in India (Yes, agree with the taxes part, but still government gets very little compared to other imported fuels/goods). Using it for luxury private transport do not make sense.

Truckers or other public transporters do not gain from the subsidies much, end users of the goods they transport or passengers does. So in theory subsidies should be limited to them only.

I think the best way to achieve this is free up diesel pricing and give subsidies by way of road tax exemption to public carriers. But this would require co-operation from the state governments, which the Centre finds difficult to get now.

Last edited by CoolFire : 15th November 2010 at 09:58.
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Old 15th November 2010, 10:00   #78
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Originally Posted by CoolFire View Post
I think the best way to achieve this is free up diesel pricing and give subsidies by way of road tax exemption to public carriers. But this would require co-operation from the state governments, which the Centre finds difficult to get now.
What is the amount of road tax which public careers pay?
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Old 15th November 2010, 10:05   #79
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IIRC, around Rs. 20,000 per annum for normal trucks. Differs from state to state.
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Old 15th November 2010, 10:24   #80
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Originally Posted by CoolFire View Post
IIRC, around Rs. 20,000 per annum for normal trucks. Differs from state to state.
If this is the rate per annum, then not sure whether this will be sufficient for removing the subsidy.

Back of the paper calculations.

- Assume a truck does 60000 kms per year.
- Average of truck - 5 km/litre (not sure about this at all).

So that's 12000 litres per year - If diesel prices were increased by 12 Rs, then, trucks would end up paying 1.5 lakhs extra per year - a 20000 Rs tax subsidy will not compensate at all.

Maybe the govt should announce a road tax removal only on CNG Trucks for 3-5 years. This would compensate for the cost of converting the trucks to CNG. Side by side, the Govt should start reducing diesel subsidy by Rs. 2 every year till the subsidy is totally removed.
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Old 15th November 2010, 10:41   #81
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Yes, you are right, carboy. The subsidy cannot be fully replaced by road tax exemption. But it can decrease the pain. Also, by the current crude price levels, diesel prices only needs to go up by around Rs.6 only.

As you said, a step by step approach can help. Any time the crude prices boil over, govt. can bring in extra relief directly to the public transport sector.
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Old 15th November 2010, 10:56   #82
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Yes, you are right, carboy. The subsidy cannot be fully replaced by road tax exemption. But it can decrease the pain. Also, by the current crude price levels, diesel prices only needs to go up by around Rs.6 only.
I don't have a diesel vehicle, so I don't know about diesel prices. But I thought that the price difference (atleast in Mumbai) between Diesel & Petrol is around 12-13 Rs.

Also, I see a lot of ads from the fuel companies targetting Truck Guys for premium diesel. If there is so much advertising money spent for advertising premium diesel targetted for commercial trucks, that does mean that it's working - i.e. atleast some amount of truck must be running on premium. I do not think any increase in average(if at all) because of running premium would compensate for the increased cost. If trucks are running it for the detergents, then maybe they should use System D or something like that. Anyway, this may mean that that can afford to pay atleast a rupee or more for diesel anyway.
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Old 15th November 2010, 19:28   #83
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The climax of the comment is this news from the German media. the viewer's comments below the news in some cases make funny reading. Some a re balanced but some vitriolic!

Indian official calls German cars 'criminal' - The Local
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Old 15th November 2010, 20:33   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoolFire View Post
+1 to that. His point here was only regarding two things, though the communication was not upto the mark -

1. Big SUVs which guzzle diesel does pollute more than normal cars. Once these vehicles becomes hugely popular, they can be used by one or two passengers, often increasing the pollution per person seriously (as in the case of most US states).

2. Diesel is subsidised in India (Yes, agree with the taxes part, but still government gets very little compared to other imported fuels/goods). Using it for luxury private transport do not make sense.
+1 to that. Except for the honda part, minister's statement was good. He was only taking BMW, Audi's name as an example.
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Old 15th November 2010, 22:14   #85
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Originally Posted by anjan_c2007 View Post
The climax of the comment is this news from the German media. the viewer's comments below the news in some cases make funny reading. Some a re balanced but some vitriolic!

Indian official calls German cars 'criminal' - The Local
Maybe we should post a link to GTO's German car & flatbed towing thread in their comments section. That will get them into a tizzy.
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Old 16th November 2010, 10:34   #86
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I see nothing wrong in ministers statement .

I think everybody is entitled to his / her opinion . as a minister and a MP, he is responsible for entire country's environment . we are already seeing the sharp rise in temp every summer with a rise in green house gases . where as Europe has learned the lessons and are going for hybrid tech or fuel efficient cars and we are after what they have abandoned .
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Old 16th November 2010, 11:14   #87
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In a less serious vein: He said that buying SUVs is criminal - spot on, the biggest customers are the netas, and are often seen driving round in large convoys.

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Last edited by mobike008 : 16th November 2010 at 14:12.
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Old 16th November 2010, 12:16   #88
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This is the same issue in ref Tax on Agricultural income.

It is untaxed in order to help the small farmer who is surviving at subsistence level.

But who actually takes the maximum benefit? All the big farmer/ politico types are the actual gainers.

In theory all these policies have good intentions but unfortunately we dont have a robust mechanism to enforce and audit the same properly.


[quote=CoolFire;2140421]. Diesel is subsidised in India (Yes, agree with the taxes part, but still government gets very little compared to other imported fuels/goods). Using it for luxury private transport do not make sense.

Truckers or other public transporters do not gain from the subsidies much, end users of the goods they transport or passengers does. So in theory subsidies should be limited to them only.
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Old 16th November 2010, 13:30   #89
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Calling Diesel "subsidised" in India, is in my opinion a misnomer. What is actually happening is that the taxes collected on Diesel are less than on petrol.

An analysis Diesel Fuel Prices

As depicted the prices in US are less than a dollar (inclusive of about 35% taxes). Diesel in India is much more than that. Hence we should point out to the honourable minister; as have the oil companies a number of times; that there is no "subsidised" diesel, hence we should aim for per-km pollution standards, rather than target SUV, which may have lower consumption compared to gas guzzling Government Vehicles.

As diesel vehicles are inherently more fuel efficient (especially CRDI variants), such vehicles should be encouraged rather than discouraged!
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Old 16th November 2010, 13:48   #90
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I think this is perfect case of miscomprehension.

It is known fact that Diesel in India is sold at a cost which is much lesser than what it should and this is intended to help the farmers and commercial transport trucks.


Now this is the reason I hate TOI- Nothing in the published article means or tend to mean "Discourage the sale of BMWs and Audis". The minister even said that he does not have any control on what people buy, so he never meant what headlines say.

However, there are far more farmers and truckers who are benefitted by the pricing policy than the number of BMWs misusing them, so the minister need not be too worried. There are more immediate worries of loss of efficiency due to improper infrastructure like bad roads or rusted buses.

So I don't see any reason in being concerned about the growth of SUV users (though I do feel bad when such fuel guzzlers are driven by a single person to office :().

However, I agree with his concept of proper pricing policy. I don't know how much difference does it make for a BMW user , if diesel prices go up by 10-15 rupees he would not stop driving his car for that silly reason !

Last edited by anilisanil : 16th November 2010 at 13:50.
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