Tata Merlin - Safari replacement? *UPDATE* Uncovered Pics on Pg 90

[gshanky]

I am not sure what to think of this grill...

Seems a bit similar to Swift.

[Steeroid]

Originally Posted by mpescatori

If I were ever to buy the Merlin, I want something completely new, improved and better, not just fatter plastic bumpers and new stalk switches.

I consider myself smarter than that...

Where's that V6 200hp engine everybody's so excited about ?
Rear wheel disc brakes ?
6-speed manual transmission ?
5-speed auto'box ?
Will there be a 2nd air conditioner for the rear seats, as in the very first production run of the 2.0 TD Safari ?
Headlamp washers ?

Are Tata considernig to offer an "Overland" option, for more rugged driving ? Such as :
- improved suspension
- permanent 4x4 (with a real differential, not a viscous coupling)
- improved high/low range (how about "low on the fly"?)
- hand-wound windows and no immobilizer, but dual battery and air filter fitted to snorkel
- winch
- taller tyres to improve ground clearance

Just look at what people buy on the European market, see how we customize our offroaders !

Well spoken in the first part, Signor Pescatori - my feelings exactly.

As for the second part (Overland), please send me a PM containing details of what you're smoking right now.

[directinjection]

Originally Posted by mpescatori

Add to this that, in Europe, the Safari was taken off the market on 31 december last year, because TML couldn't comply with the new "Euro5" emission standards, and you see tragedy coming.

That's quite strange given that the new 2.2 is a modern, recently designed engine and the Euro5 dateline was known well in advance. It shouldn't be requiring a massive technological effort to make that engine Euro-5 compliant. It's completely unpardonable. Shame on ERC!

[mpescatori]

What I'm really sorry for is that the basic engnie used on the 2.2 Safari is the same as in Peugeot and Citroen saloons and SUVs, which in its Euro5 form will still deliver a healthy 160hp + (175 on a few models)

So why couldn't Tata simply buy a few hundred of these engines and fit them in the Safari ???

[iSpoke]

Originally Posted by mpescatori

This is where TML has got it all wrong.

The Merlin should have been badged Safari - because that's what it is, a Safari with a facelift and a few improvements which were long due, at least in Europe.

The "all new" Safari should have been given a new name altogether, such as Merlin or whatever,. because it WILL be a totally new car.

On a lighter side, TML people must be thinking; What to do?
When we named Indica Vista, people complained for saying it an Indica.
When we named Indica Manza, people again complained for referring it as an Indica.
Now when we are giving Safari an innovative new name Merlin, people started complaining for it being different than Safari! What to do!

[shortbread]

How does anyone know that its going to be called....Safari, Merlin, they could end up calling it the XVU600!! Who knows?!

[julupani]

Originally Posted by mpescatori

What I'm really sorry for is that the basic engnie used on the 2.2 Safari is the same as in Peugeot and Citroen saloons and SUVs, which in its Euro5 form will still deliver a healthy 160hp + (175 on a few models)

So why couldn't Tata simply buy a few hundred of these engines and fit them in the Safari ???

I am sorry, but the PSA 2.2L engine that is found in Jaguar XFs and Land Rover Freelander or RR Evoques, is technically not the same as the Tata 2.2L VTT DiCOR engine. True, from the specs they look pretty similar, considering that they actually share bore and stroke dimensions.

But those engines are used by JLR under a deal which was struck with Ford during the sale of JLR to Tata. And as Ford use those engines on their cars in Europe, they continue to be available to JLR. But they cannot be used on Tata branded cars, only JLR ones.

[harimakesh]

Originally Posted by iSpoke

On a lighter side, TML people must be thinking; What to do?
When we named Indica Vista, people complained for saying it an Indica.
When we named Indica Manza, people again complained for referring it as an Indica.
Now when we are giving Safari an innovative new name Merlin, people started complaining for it being different than Safari! What to do!

Safari is the only Tata brand that never associated with Taxi image. As Safari brand enjoys private buyer exclusivity / cult following among buyer base with highest aspirational emotions to own the Safari brand, Any upgradations in the vehicle must happen without changing the name as Merlin. This is fundamental expectations of this segment buyers who are exclusive for Tata unlike Indica/Maza Mass segment.

[shortbread]

The biggest reason why Safaris have not flooded the Taxi market unlike the Scorpio is because it is primarily a 5 seater and is never sold with three row front facing seats. Although plenty of customers would like the same the present configuration has been a blessing in disguise.

[directinjection]

Originally Posted by mpescatori

What I'm really sorry for is that the basic engnie used on the 2.2 Safari is the same as in Peugeot and Citroen saloons and SUVs, which in its Euro5 form will still deliver a healthy 160hp + (175 on a few models)

Is it possible for you to back up your claim by citing some credible source?

Originally Posted by julupani

I am sorry, but the PSA 2.2L engine that is found in Jaguar XFs and Land Rover Freelander or RR Evoques, is technically not the same as the Tata 2.2L VTT DiCOR engine. True, from the specs they look pretty similar, considering that they actually share bore and stroke dimensions.

Bore and stroke dimensions can be identical and yet the engine design may be different. Similarly, two engines may have different bore and stroke dimensions, yet one may be purely a derivative of the other. One cannot conclude that two engines are the same simply on the basis of their bore & stroke dimensions without studying their respective architectures in detail.

Safari 2.2 engine was developed by Tata in collaboration with AVL. I doubt the two companies would take the risk of spoiling their reputations by infringing the design rights of Peugeot and Citroen, unless they have given their express written permission.

When Indica was introduced in Europe, western (or rather English) journos used to allege that the Indica 1405 CC engine was a Peugeot unit but without substantiating the claim ever.

[mpescatori]

Originally Posted by iSpoke

On a lighter side, TML people must be thinking; What to do?
When we named Indica Vista, people complained for saying it an Indica.
When we named Indica Manza, people again complained for referring it as an Indica.
Now when we are giving Safari an innovative new name Merlin, people started complaining for it being different than Safari! What to do!

1) Never confuse the customer: if a car is called "Safari" and the facelift gets a new name, NEVER introduce a completely new model calling it with the old name.

2) Never contradict yourself: if a car is called Safari, and the "all new Safari" is a completely different car, the "thing" which comes in between but us based on the old model should maintain the old model's legacy.

3) Never rip off the customer: if a car is initially sold as "the upmarket version of <old model>, it should never be empoverished when <new model> comes along. Who would buy an empoverished version of the new car, when you can have the beter equipped car on the 2nd hand market at less cost?

As for the 2200cc TDi being or not being a Peugeot design, all I can say is:
- Tata dealerships in Italy are always siamesed, Peugeot/Citroen + Tata; never tata + any other brand, but always Peugeot + Tata; there must be a reason.
- I have never heard of the (Austrian?) firm quoted as the original designer of the Tata 2200 TDi, whether it's a VVT or not; furthermore, if it really is a VVT, then 140hp is very poor performance.

A VVT design should be able to deliver tons of torque at low revs and tons of ooomph at high revs. 140hp from a 2200 is barely average. True, it is better than Land Rover's 125hp off a 2500cc, but not nearly as good as the VM )Italian) designs deliversing 170hp off a 2.4, or off a 2.7 (for offroad) or 210+ for a 3000cc.

It is not a matter of determining if 2200cc are adequate displacement, it is a matter of determining if the engine fitted on such a heavy vehicle is capable of adequately holding up to the competition.

As we stand at the moment, the current 2200cc Safari is a nice SUV with some offroad capability due to rail chassis, good suspension and Dana drivetrain; however, the 2200cc engine lags far behind the older 3000cc (my engine) because it lacks the low-end torque. To be honest, the older 2.0 TD in expert hands is a better performer off road than the 2200 TDi, I've seen it done.

In conclusion, what Tata should do is deliver a "twinned" product, as Toyota do, with two styles of Safari: the city/dirt road/country lane" Safari with leather seats and all the goodies, perhaps with automatic transmission etc., but without the need for low gears and heavy duty shocks etc.; and a "proper" 4x4, without leather seats and DVD player, but with specific characteristics to make me feel safe offroad going up teh steep slope, fording a river, or towing a similar vehicle in the mud, sand or snow.

If Toyota can do it with the Land Cruiser, and Jeep, Mercedes Benz and Land Rover followed suit, why can't Tata ?

[julupani]

Originally Posted by mpescatori

As for the 2200cc TDi being or not being a Peugeot design, all I can say is:
- Tata dealerships in Italy are always siamesed, Peugeot/Citroen + Tata; never tata + any other brand, but always Peugeot + Tata; there must be a reason.
- I have never heard of the (Austrian?) firm quoted as the original designer of the Tata 2200 TDi, whether it's a VVT or not; furthermore, if it really is a VVT, then 140hp is very poor performance.

A VVT design should be able to deliver tons of torque at low revs and tons of ooomph at high revs. 140hp from a 2200 is barely average. True, it is better than Land Rover's 125hp off a 2500cc, but not nearly as good as the VM )Italian) designs deliversing 170hp off a 2.4, or off a 2.7 (for offroad) or 210+ for a 3000cc.

It is not a matter of determining if 2200cc are adequate displacement, it is a matter of determining if the engine fitted on such a heavy vehicle is capable of adequately holding up to the competition.

As we stand at the moment, the current 2200cc Safari is a nice SUV with some offroad capability due to rail chassis, good suspension and Dana drivetrain; however, the 2200cc engine lags far behind the older 3000cc (my engine) because it lacks the low-end torque. To be honest, the older 2.0 TD in expert hands is a better performer off road than the 2200 TDi, I've seen it done.

In conclusion, what Tata should do is deliver a "twinned" product, as Toyota do, with two styles of Safari: the city/dirt road/country lane" Safari with leather seats and all the goodies, perhaps with automatic transmission etc., but without the need for low gears and heavy duty shocks etc.; and a "proper" 4x4, without leather seats and DVD player, but with specific characteristics to make me feel safe offroad going up teh steep slope, fording a river, or towing a similar vehicle in the mud, sand or snow.

If Toyota can do it with the Land Cruiser, and Jeep, Mercedes Benz and Land Rover followed suit, why can't Tata ?

First of all, let me make it clear. The 2.2L VTT DiCOR (not VVT, VTT is Tata terminology for variable vane turbocharger), was developed by the Austrian firm AVL and Tata. It had nothing to do with PSA DW12 engine. I can tell you this because I had done a small internship with Tata during which I had got a chance to work on the production line of the Tata 2.2DiCOR engine a few weeks after it had been introduced. I had read up a lot on this engine, and in fact me with my project partners had even got to make a few modifications.

And true the old 3L DICOR will be much better in terms of low down torque. The reason being it was not designed to be used in a SUV. It was originally designed as a mini-truck engine, powering Tata's 5ton LCVs. Tata took their smallest CV engine and asked Bosch to add a common rail system to it. So it's no surprise that it has excellet low down torque.

Sir, please remember that the Safari is not a vehicle made by Tata to impress its Italian fans with serious 4x4 ability. It is a slightly premium SUV from India, which happens to have some fans in Italy and a few other countries.

Tata cannot be expected to keep your requirements in mind when designing a Safari. There are just not enough of you to make that economical.

For the time being you have to be satisfied with modifying whatever Tata can sell to you.

[directinjection]

Originally Posted by julupani

Tata took their smallest CV engine and asked Bosch to add a common rail system to it.

3.0 used Delphi common rail system, not Bosch.

Originally Posted by julupani

Sir, please remember that the Safari is not a vehicle made by Tata to impress its Italian fans with serious 4x4 ability. It is a slightly premium SUV from India, which happens to have some fans in Italy and a few other countries.Tata cannot be expected to keep your requirements in mind when designing a Safari. There are just not enough of you to make that economical. For the time being you have to be satisfied with modifying whatever Tata can sell to you.

Disagree with you there. Italians buy Safari since Tata has chosen to sell it there. If you are targeting a particular territory, you better make sure that your product (1) conforms to the local law and (2) satisfies the local customer. If you can't do that, why take the trouble of exporting, setting up a dealer & servicing network, participating in international auto shows, investing in sales promotions, etc. If you aren't bothered about a particular marget segment, just forget it instead of making a half-hearted effort to capture it. Interestingly, exports have always been accorded great priority at Tata Motors.

[julupani]

Originally Posted by directinjection

3.0 used Delphi common rail system, not Bosch.

Disagree with you there. Italians buy Safari since Tata has chosen to sell it there. If you are targeting a particular territory, you better make sure that your product (1) conforms to the local law and (2) satisfies the local customer. If you can't do that, why take the trouble of exporting, setting up a dealer & servicing network, participating in international auto shows, investing in sales promotions, etc. If you aren't bothered about a particular marget segment, just forget it instead of making a half-hearted effort to capture it. Interestingly, exports have always been accorded great priority at Tata Motors.

Hmm, I always get confused with that one. Correct, it was Delphi and not Bosch.

As for Tata selling Safari in Italy, its not likely the Italian's are their primary customers. The Safari is a made for India vehicle. Tata decided to export some to Europe and see if they have any buyer's for the vehicle they made for India.

The Safari or the Indica were never "targetted" for Italy, rather they were targetted to India. Tata priority for export is not really Italy, its more like Thailand, South Africa etc. Even then, exports may have been given more importance than other companies, but it still did not trump the priorities of the Indian market.

If they could sell a few Safaris on the side in Italy, is it so wrong??

If they had really big ambitions in the Italian market, they would definitely have made efforts to make their engine Euro5 compliant. But the numbers from Italy probably dont make it economic enough to make such an investment. Thus the withdrawal from the Italian market of the Safari.

[Trapezio]

Originally Posted by directinjection

When Indica was introduced in Europe, western (or rather English) journos used to allege that the Indica 1405 CC engine was a Peugeot unit but without substantiating the claim ever.

The Tata TDi engine is based on an old Peugeot design. A legal agreement also exists between the company. Many of the parts are actually interchangeable. If you want an explicit media source, I do not have any. Tata did not copy the design; but they did not start from a clean sheet and instead wisely decided to turn to Peugeot.

Originally Posted by julupani

As for Tata selling Safari in Italy, its not likely the Italian's are their primary customers. The Safari is a made for India vehicle. Tata decided to export some to Europe and see if they have any buyer's for the vehicle they made for India.

The Safari or the Indica were never "targetted" for Italy, rather they were targetted to India. Tata priority for export is not really Italy, its more like Thailand, South Africa etc. Even then, exports may have been given more importance than other companies, but it still did not trump the priorities of the Indian market.

What logic is this?

By the same logic we should have swallowed whatever manufacturers other than Tata and Mahindra offered since they are all foreign brands! Oooh.. Ambassador also was not designed for Indians and hence we should not be complaining.