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Old 14th November 2011, 17:44   #1201
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Default re: Tata Merlin - Safari replacement? *UPDATE* Uncovered Pics on Pg 90

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Originally Posted by sarcar View Post
Meanwhile, spotted a few Mahindra XUV 5 double-o's on the road, including one in my basement parking, belonging to a neighbour. Having bought a Safari just a couple of months back, it crossed my mind a few times if I had timed it correctly or if I should have waited for the 500.

All I can say is, "No envy, no regrets."
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Originally Posted by mannubhai View Post
Lolz. Like that " no envy, No regrets" part.

Having almost paid an advance for a safari and just in time having booked the XUV and driving it now, i must admit, some where down the line, i will always miss owning a safri
The XUV now seems to apeal to the Head and the Safari to the Heart, but then most who bought the Safari - and there a lot of us over the years - did probably buy out of the appeal to the heart. Though I bought my Safari a year before the Scorpio was out and the Aria a year before the XUV was out just can't say what if. Infact am sure that if I had waited till now then would have not been able to book either the Aria or the XUV as a lot of stuff in both of them appeal to me but none entirely. A lot of New Safari buyers will face the same issue with the XUV but the difference vs the Aria situation will be that both will look like SUV's the Safari as a pure blood and the XUV as a crossover that looks like an SUV, while in my case the Aria is a crossover (on a pure blood chassis) that looks like an M..V by some standards (kind of like 007 is disguise - just as in the advt.). But if one thinks from TATA point of view if they wanted to keep the Safari and the Aria both in the lineup then it just was not possible for both to have the SUV look hence.

Competition changes the plans of companies and the XUV has let the cat amongs vehicles in it's price band as well as a couple of lacs below and upto even the 20L band. Nice.

Now it is upto TATA to play it's cards. Lets see what it does.
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Old 14th November 2011, 17:46   #1202
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Default re: Tata Merlin - Safari replacement? *UPDATE* Uncovered Pics on Pg 90

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Originally Posted by raj_5004 View Post
That is because, irrespective of what one has to say, scorpio is a strong competitor & is giving a tough time to the current safari!
Raj : 4300 Scorpios : 1300 Safaris, Do you call this a competition ? .


TATA's have to sack their entire product development people and bring in someone who knows stuff and passionate about what they do. This is the only way they can see some fruits else, RIP like Fiat.

PS: No offense to any TATA or Fiat owners.
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Old 14th November 2011, 17:46   #1203
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Default re: Tata Merlin - Safari replacement? *UPDATE* Uncovered Pics on Pg 90

Honestly, what is taking Tata so long to introduce this new car? They took quite a while with the Aria too, and so far, it hasn't been impressive either. Mahindra's XUV is having a field-day at the moment. C'mon Tata, get on with it already!
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Old 14th November 2011, 19:48   #1204
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Default re: Tata Merlin - Safari replacement? *UPDATE* Uncovered Pics on Pg 90

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Originally Posted by 2500cc View Post
Raj : 4300 Scorpios : 1300 Safaris, Do you call this a competition ? .


TATA's have to sack their entire product development people and bring in someone who knows stuff and passionate about what they do. This is the only way they can see some fruits else, RIP like Fiat.

PS: No offense to any TATA or Fiat owners.
Totally agree. It has taken them 13 long years and still unable to figure out , how to stop the tail gate rattling.

Tata needs to come out of the mind set they are a Govt company
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Old 14th November 2011, 20:54   #1205
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Default re: Tata Merlin - Safari replacement? *UPDATE* Uncovered Pics on Pg 90

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2500cc View Post
Raj : 4300 Scorpios : 1300 Safaris, Do you call this a competition ? .


TATA's have to sack their entire product development people and bring in someone who knows stuff and passionate about what they do. This is the only way they can see some fruits else, RIP like Fiat.

PS: No offense to any TATA or Fiat owners.
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Originally Posted by mannubhai View Post
Totally agree. It has taken them 13 long years and still unable to figure out , how to stop the tail gate rattling.

Tata needs to come out of the mind set they are a Govt company
Even I agree but I usually refrain from using strong words against TATA as it is often not taken in right spirits & end up in unnecessary heated arguments & senseless comments.

Coming to the topic, TATA has a lot of resources & even the expertise but I dont see them utilizing it to the extent I expect them to. With the kind of potential they have, they can literally punch their competition right where it hurts, but so far they have never succeeded.

Initially, when the Manza & Aria was launched, they seemed to be great products as I thought the new gen TATAs are something different. But I was wrong.

But all said & done, I am still waiting for the Merlin. I want to see what they have managed this time.
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Old 14th November 2011, 22:40   #1206
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Default re: Tata Merlin - Safari replacement? *UPDATE* Uncovered Pics on Pg 90

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Originally Posted by ACM View Post
The XUV now seems to apeal to the Head and the Safari to the Heart,
This logic is beginning to sound like a broken Record. I would agree if you had said Scorpio, but I don't see why an XUV with all the features and fantastic performance should not appeal to the heart?
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Old 14th November 2011, 22:50   #1207
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Default re: Tata Merlin - Safari replacement? *UPDATE* Uncovered Pics on Pg 90

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Originally Posted by 4x4addict View Post
This logic is beginning to sound like a broken Record. I would agree if you had said Scorpio, but I don't see why an XUV with all the features and fantastic performance should not appeal to the heart?
i cannot say about others, but in my case i feel that xuv has everything and thus appeals to the head, but does not havevone thing that creates a flutter in the heart and that is 'character'. safari still looks gorgeous with its grey coloured claddings, the grille and the works
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Old 15th November 2011, 10:14   #1208
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Default re: Tata Merlin - Safari replacement? *UPDATE* Uncovered Pics on Pg 90

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Originally Posted by shivmarwaha View Post
i cannot say about others, but in my case i feel that xuv has everything and thus appeals to the head, but does not havevone thing that creates a flutter in the heart and that is 'character'. safari still looks gorgeous with its grey coloured claddings, the grille and the works
Head vs Heart thing happens when the cars have been there for long enough to appeal to the heart.

In my case, I have been eyeing the safaris with a lot of Jealousy for last 12 years. Thats what appeals to the heart.

But yes, the heart did beat for the XUV when i saw it .
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Old 15th November 2011, 15:52   #1209
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Default re: Tata Merlin - Safari replacement? *UPDATE* Uncovered Pics on Pg 90

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Originally Posted by 4x4addict View Post
This logic is beginning to sound like a broken Record. I would agree if you had said Scorpio, but I don't see why an XUV with all the features and fantastic performance should not appeal to the heart?
That is exactly why we all are different with different hearts and heads.

THOUGH AM QUOTING 4x4addict, this is not specifically only in relation to his post, these are just some ramblings that will finally matter for the new safari and how people view it and if the XUV will affect it:

Let me put it this way. I would not be able to go for the XUV as my own drive due to

1) Overall Interior and Exterior Size - Though I like even the front looks which many find debatable. Feel the looks though very modern and fresh will over time stop being that eye catching (like in the case of the Captiva) while the Fortuner like in the case of the current Safari have looks that make them forever appealing.
2) Already reported tech glitches with the features- which some owners that I know personally too have reported beyond TBHP.
3) Ladder Frame vs Mono chassis - what will work better on India roads in the long run, which one will be able to take the thuds through speed bumps and potholes better over time?
4) Overall perception of TATA vs M&M brand - Just like some like Fiat over other brands but most buy Fiat with their Heart more than their Heads though it always seems to have at the time of launch the best of features, drive and looks. It is not a fan boy thing, but like some are fine with a hyundai and some with a maruti and some with neither. For some mitsubishi tugs at the heart and for some anything Honda. It is hard to quantify just like it is hard to spell out why the Bolero has beaten all sales records in its segment. (M&M themselves cannot figure it out. recently one of my colleagues who is hard pressed with the petrol price and the average given by his petrol linea told me he was thinking of selling it and going for the bolero - I just kept looking - sanity will prevail soon - does the bolero appeal to the heart or the head? God alone knows.)
5) The Interior bits that fall that bit short of what is acceptable quality for me.
6) Modern looks vs Traditional looks. Traditional SUV like Fortuner/Endy/Safari/Pajero looks vs Modern Crossover like Captiva, XUV, Outlander, Xtrail or something in between like the Aria - actually is it inbetween or outside the acceptable range.

Yet would inspite of this would probably tell my wife (who is not that passionate about her cars) to go ahead and get the W6 varient XUV500 (less gizmos - less going wrong) version if she is looking for a vehicle in the 10-11L range. (The long term reliability being the only question - but then there is the warranty). It offers great VFM (Head call) but missing some bits that tug at some hearts (not all hearts). Infact with even a basic AT it would make for a superb vehicle, but then so would the fortuner and the Aria. So there is a car for everyone. When I bought the Laura every one told me that it just did not suite me and the Safari was better. I think the Laura for example actually suites my wife (AT and all besides)

The New Safari if it does get all the goodies of the Aria with most of the current Safari looks retained but modernized / updated to be fresh and price around the XUV would again provide a nice alternative to those who want it this way. It would be just the vehicle for the Hard Cord Rugged feel / look guys. Come on the Endy is not more comfortable than the XUV either but it does sell, and so does the fortuner at double the cost and half the features but not double the value. Each vehicle has a set of attributes that appeal to a specific set of people. The number of such people may be more or less and may be the masses or just a small segment. The Car manufacturers need to map their TG well.

NOW THESE ARE JUST A FEW POINTS - NOT COUNTER ARGUMENTS - THEY JUST THROW UP ALTERNATIVE WAYS IN WHICH MANY PEOPLE THINK. The proof of the pudding is finally in the sales pattern and on the number of people thinking differently. IF ALL THE PEOPLE THOUGHT ALIKE AND IF THERE WAS ONLY ONE REALLY GOOD CAR DEFINATION ONLY ONE WOULD SELL, BUT THERE ARE MORE HITS THAN FAILURES IN THE MARKET TODAY.

Last edited by ACM : 15th November 2011 at 15:57.
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Old 16th November 2011, 13:33   #1210
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Default re: Tata Merlin - Safari replacement? *UPDATE* Uncovered Pics on Pg 90

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Originally Posted by ACM View Post
That is exactly why we all are different with different hearts and heads.
Scorpio sells about 4000 units a month vs 1000 odd for the Safari. All I am saying is that, I feel it is silly to argue that all 1000 units are bought because it appeals to the heart and 4000 unis are sold because it appeals to the head. Although, I did not need any blood thinning medication when I took delivery of the Scorpio, I am sure that many people have bought Scorpio for the heart... and not just for the head.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ACM View Post
Let me put it this way. I would not be able to go for the XUV as my own drive due to
I wouldn't buy an XUV either, and agree with most of points you highlighted. When the electronic fiddly bits fail down the line, it is going to be a pain to keep this vehicle without head ache.

I disagree on the Mono Chasis, my maruthi 800 was bought in 1988 and survived 23 years abuse on Kerala roads, which are probably one of the worst on the country. So, I don't see why an XUV will not outlast a Safari or Scorpio on our roads.
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Old 16th November 2011, 13:40   #1211
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Default re: Tata Merlin - Safari replacement? *UPDATE* Uncovered Pics on Pg 90

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Originally Posted by 4x4addict View Post

I disagree on the Mono Chasis, my maruthi 800 was bought in 1988 and survived 23 years abuse on Kerala roads, which are probably one of the worst on the country. So, I don't see why an XUV will not outlast a Safari or Scorpio on our roads.
mono chassis on lighter car is altogether a different case than using the same on an SUV.

When tata first brought in the winger which was directly picked up from renault , on the indian roads the floor panel near the wheel arcs beneath which the suspension struts were mounted used to tear off.

it was good that tata realised this immediately during initial testing and then there was lot of reinforcement put in those places.

on bad roads chassis frame withstands more abuse than monocoque.
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Old 16th November 2011, 13:49   #1212
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Default re: Tata Merlin - Safari replacement? *UPDATE* Uncovered Pics on Pg 90

@amit

How is the Montero and Grand Cherokee surviving without falling apart?

Given bulk of XUVs will be passenger vehicles running on urban roads, monoque will suffice.

Last edited by 4x4addict : 16th November 2011 at 13:52.
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Old 16th November 2011, 14:36   #1213
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Default re: Tata Merlin - Safari replacement? *UPDATE* Uncovered Pics on Pg 90

The Montero uses a Monocoque body with what they themselves call a Built-in Ladder Frame. They even highlight this under their Safety section showing the Ladder Frame Clearly. They too see the need to do that I guess to convey that they have the benifits of both worlds. Ladder Frames were known to be very heavy and to add to the weight but a part of that too is offset by newer manufacturing techniques that make ladder frames lighter (though not as much as monocoque)

Mitsubishi Pajero SFX | Car Safety - Mitsubishi Motors

Check out the link.

The Tata with the Aria talks about hydroforming process - dont know how much of that will make it's way into the New Safari.

It also depends upon which safety tests one wishes to pass. If one is not too keen (not selling in certain markets) to pass certain tests then a fair bit of wt. can be reduced.

Wikepedia too calls the Montero current varient available since 2008 - Second Generation one as one based on a Ladder Fame. Do wonder why? Mistusbishi does use the names Pajero, Pajero Sport, Montero etc quite interchangeably across models to add to the confusion.

The Jeep Grand Cherokee has been a monocoque all it's life but the company has hedged its bets with both solutions. It ofcourse has not done duty in India so is unproven here, though a big brand I guess in todays times. The G Class, G Wagon the Land Rover, Hummer and the Land Cruiser are top of the game right now. Mercedese does have the M Class now as a mono but wonder why they did not do the change with the G Class if they were so sure about this being the way to go. Maybe not for now atleast.

Yes more and more of the mid sized (by global standards) SUV are going in for monocoque structures. But the same companies still do have their top end models in Ladder Frame structures.

If one is actually going to fly off the ground in a high speed run through the desert or in many other conditions the laws of physics do support a monocoques lighter frame due the lesser pressure on the remaining components, (during the return to ground on account of gravity) but the the vehicles doing this routine in the various death (too harsh a word maybe) rallies globally do have reinforcement to all the other suspension components in anycase. Beside the ligher wt makes for more forward thrust, but as far as doing through rought roads more or less day in and out in many cities in India we will have to wait for the verdict to be out on what works.

Already as far as the XUV is concerned all reports have given it a thumbs up in cornering - obviously, but not so for the ride and how it absorbs bumps (rough roads) relative to other Ladder Frame SUV's / Crossovers. Autocar and TopGear both have not given a favourable verdict on that aspect.

Yet this is all irrelavent. The next generation Safari will be based on a Ladder Frame. Most of the buyer of none among the XUV, Scorpio, Safari, Innova, Captiva, Fortuner, Aria, Endy know if they are buying a monochassis or a ladder one and do not decide based on that. (I did say most - there are ofcourse the enthusiast who are aware and take a call accordingly).

For me as an individual SUV's for now should be Ladder Frame and Cars monocoque. Yes with newer manufacturing technologies and better validation / corrections of current assumptions things may change. But obviously both paths work and sell.
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Old 16th November 2011, 14:58   #1214
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Default re: Tata Merlin - Safari replacement? *UPDATE* Uncovered Pics on Pg 90

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Originally Posted by arvindmanju View Post
Guys posting this after speaking to a Sales Ex from Concorde today, came here to looking for Safari EX 4X4, which they don't have
This is really weird - there have been multiple back/forth on availability of Safari 4x4 in variants other than VX. Only last month, TML updated its website to include 4x4 option for EX and GX (refer to my post here (Why 4x4 only in top end variants of SUVs)). This is what the website says today:
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Old 16th November 2011, 18:21   #1215
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Default re: Tata Merlin - Safari replacement? *UPDATE* Uncovered Pics on Pg 90

Guys, lets please restrict this discussion to the Merlin only. Thanks
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