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Old 17th December 2005, 22:44   #31
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Originally Posted by Shan2nu
Firstly, it's not 19.3 but 18.9 kmpl. 2ndly, it wasn't under city conditions.

Nobody here, is saying that the City gives 20kmpl in the City. You're getting confused between the name of the car and the driving conditions. LOL

As for the 18.9kmpl. I drove the car for 420kms and filled 22.2 litres before the tank got filled. 420 / 22.2 = 18.9kmpl.

I understand that you're finding that figure hard to believe but, that is a fact. The Vtec is capable of it (if driven properly). Thats what Vtec was designed to do. Reduce air intake at low rpm, causing the engine to produce less power than a normal engine, resulting in better FE.

If you could get your hands on a power/torque curve chart of the Vtec. Below 3000rpm, it wouldn't be any diff from the 77bhp idsi. It's only after 3000 that the actual power is unleashed. Stay below that rpm and it'll do wonders for your FE.

NHC on the other hand relies on down right low power, for it's FE. The result is that both engines are FE.



Atleast i didn't claim 18.9 everytime. My average FE on the highway is 16-17kmpl. 18.9 was just a one off fig, which i got by driving between 80-100 kmph.

Shan2nu
Ok thats what I said. A car can give a magical mileage once in a while.

the RS article was overboard too. Its not just honda or SKoda but all the companies. only one thing at the bottom of each ad saves them

"* Under standard test conditions"

agreed its a new and innovative technology that helps maximise FE. but then I suppose Honda can launch the same engine in a lightweight 900kg lightweight hatch and get 27+kmpl in the city. it will sell more than a maruti 800 or alto guranteed.

weight is one of the major factors to take its toll on the FE

a maruti baleno engine is 94bhp carrying 975kgs
a mitsubishi lancer engine is 87bhp carrying 1010kg
a honda city engine is 77bhp carrying 1077kgs
a optra 1.6 engine is 104bhp carrying 1230kgs

baleno engine is most powerful burning more fuel but carrying less weight. the aluminium engine is said to be highly efficient.
lancer engine is less powerful burning less fuel but carrying more weight. These engines are famous for their refinement and FE
NHC engine is even less powerful burning less fuel carrying even more weight. Everybody says are FE
optra is the the heaviest and most powerful getting the least FE from these VGIS engines.

seeing the statistics of Baleno, NHC and lancer, engine capacities ,bhp,torque, weight and technology used there is little to no difference in the FE they give. while optra is severly penalised.


an occasional 15kpl in the city is the best a NHC,OHC,baleno or lancer can give. Otherwise 10-14 kmpl depending on the driving conditions nad driving style is the true mileage to expect from any japanese car in this segment.

Last edited by devarshi84 : 17th December 2005 at 22:48.
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Old 17th December 2005, 22:45   #32
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Originally Posted by devarshi84
But you will say the same thing when a Honda dealer tells you than NHC is faster than the OHC.In Marketing I learned that If a salesman is fooling around with the consumer than it meants that he thinks the consumer is a fool and dumb person. It is to be taken as an insult. Landmark Honda pissed a consumer off so badly that he bought his CAr from Baroda out of frustration.
Its sad that such a thing happened, but just because one salesman/dealer tried to sell a product by giving false information does not mean that the facts about the product are false.

Quote:
Originally Posted by devarshi84
But the present strategy of honda is clearly towards robbing Indians.
If Honda is saying that NHC is the most fuel efficient car then what wrong is it doing ? Lets just take the Autocar figures into consideration and not any individual claims. Per Autocar, NHC returned 11.8 kmpl in city. Show me one petrol car in the same segment as NHC that gave more than 11.8 kmpl in city per Autocar tests.

Quote:
Originally Posted by devarshi84
I agree that different people claim different FE figures. But atleast it should be realistic. Ok once in a while a car can give a magical mileage but what is this funda about 20kmpl each and everytime?
I don't see anyone claiming exaggerating figures. Majority of the owners have claimed(on T-BHP and outside as well) the FE as 12-14 kmpl in city and 16-18 on highways and this is very much in sync with the Autocar test results. Any numbers above these are bonus and depend on individuals skill and luck(roads & traffic).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shan2nu
Nobody is asking you to believe what the ads/salesmen say. But, trying to avoid figs put forward by the people who own these cars, is something i don't understand.
I feel the same too.
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Old 18th December 2005, 00:06   #33
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Honda City overpriced? I agree that personally it not VFM for me. But how can we say it is overpriced when it is selling in such big numbers?

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Old 18th December 2005, 00:11   #34
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I get FE of 11kmpl in my NHC CVT,which has done 2 free services till date,third free service still pending.
The FE figure is in Mumbai City driving,with AC on 95% times.
I use 91 octane IOC Premium fuel..
OT:would switching over to 93 octane help in increasing FE under same driving style/conditions?

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Old 18th December 2005, 00:58   #35
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Now other (equally important) factors are tyre and tyre pressures (extent of contact with road/ friction/ drag), cleanliness of air-filters (how powerful have you felt when you had a bad cold/ choked nose?), quality of fuel ('Boost is the secret of Kapil's energy!'), phalana, phalana...


Quote:
More intelligent FE drivers look at the torque curve and look for "flat rpm regions" in addition. Even more intelligent drivers look for engines which have a "flat profile near the peak" and also ensure that the peak is at relatively low rpms. iDSI meets the expectations of this last category reasonably well, hence rest assured Honda isn't hyping!
Ms,
You are right but a flat torque curve near the peak ensures that the engine is more efficient at this rpm speed. It does not mean that the engine will give the most FE at this pt. The best FE is still achieved when doing low RPM's at a constant speed(when you don't throttle more in a higher gear).
Say for a Baleno for ex: it's 134@3000 with a nearly flat torque curve. So if i do a 110-120@5th gear(at 2800-3000 RPM) it will mean that the engine will be most efficient and have maximum pulling power here. So overtaking is a breeze.
The max(or very good) FE however will still be when crusing at 60-80 kmph in the 5th gear b/w 1700-1900 RPM.

Quote:
jimmy, I didn't said I drive bellow 80kmpl for better mileage.
I get your pt. I was just pointing out that if you have the road and the inclination then speeding up will be more fun even at the cost of FE. If road conditions compel you to do a 80 kmph then no prob- atleast you get good FE.

Quote:
but since this thread is for FE hence i gave facts what my car is capable of.
There is no doubt about that. Driven at constant speeds of 90-100 kmph most cars can give anything b/w 16-18 kmpl. And a NHC idsi where power is sacrificed for outrright FE should better it by 1kmpl atleast.

Quote:
I understand that you're finding that figure hard to believe but, that is a fact. The Vtec is capable of it (if driven properly). Thats what Vtec was designed to do. Reduce air intake at low rpm, causing the engine to produce less power than a normal engine, resulting in better FE.
I think the OHC Vtec is more FE than a NHC Vtec and also perhaps the NHC Idsi. Atleast as per ACI figures.And also the figures that Shan2nu put for the OHC Vtec in another thread.Possible bcoz the OHC Vtec weighed much lesser than both the new cars.
The NHC Vtec has to be less FE than the NHC Idsi for normal driving conditions where you sometimes rev and sometimes drive slowly.

Quote:
If Honda is saying that NHC is the most fuel efficient car then what wrong is it doing ? Lets just take the Autocar figures into consideration and not any individual claims. Per Autocar, NHC returned 11.8 kmpl in city. Show me one petrol car in the same segment as NHC that gave more than 11.8 kmpl in city per Autocar tests.
The regular figures from ACI(at the end of each magazine) have 10.9 in city for NHC. For the Lancer it is 9.7 and the Baleno it is 9.8. Similar for the highways with the Lancer and the Baleno with 15.xx and NHC at 16.5.
All that stuff with 27 kmpl for the NHC that OD publishes is crap. So as suspected the NHC Idsi is 1-1.2 kmpl more FE than other cars.
But this is at the cost of performance which is severly penalised compared to others. Hence your choice.


Again anyone who buys a NHC Idsi would do for reasons other than power(hopefully).
For the performance freaks the NHC Vtec should be a more balanced choice with FE figures almost similar to the Baleno and the Lancer, but with a price to pay for the huge power increase over the Idsi.

Last edited by imjimmy : 18th December 2005 at 01:02.
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Old 18th December 2005, 12:46   #36
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You are right Jimmy.

thats the point I am trying to raise. agreed that NHC is a FE car. Nothing wrong with that. But when the claims go overboard........

NHC vtec is is powerful but I dont expect it to do what OHC vtec did. A 0-100 will be alongwith the lines of baleno I guess. and with same FE figures and additional auto a/c and maruti service why would you buy the NHC vtec at such an exorbitant price?

Lancer price cut was with respect to competition. Baleno prices fell for the same reason. What is the logic behind introducing a car with a price that is more than the competition when others are reducing the price? Baleno costs around 7.00 ex-showroom. Lancer costs around 6.9 ex-showroom without discounts. The difference is of 10k. Now what was honda thinking when they priced their vtec at around 8.5 ex-showroom? Its a whooping 1.5 lacs more. and what USP does honda have to sell it for 1.5 more. Baleno is equally powerful and lancer makes up in the handling department.

I wouldnt pay 1.5lacs more for a badge that says "H" on the grille. A 30k-40k more on the price tag is logical being a new car but thats about it.


I agree honda makes good cars but their prices and FE figures for the NHC are certainly not speaking the truth. I will vote against the NHC.
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Old 19th December 2005, 12:21   #37
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My NHC gives 14-15 KMPL in city with 50% AC and 17.5 KMPL on highway with 100% AC
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Old 19th December 2005, 20:34   #38
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Honda City overpriced? I agree that personally it not VFM for me. But how can we say it is overpriced when it is selling in such big numbers?
Minardi, this is India. You can wrap sh** in a box , put a Honda or Toyota logo and people will blindly pay a premium for it!
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Old 19th December 2005, 22:51   #39
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My NHC CVT gives 9kmpl...pretty constant doesnt go below more does it go much above in the city with ac. I have never bothered asking wat the company claims coz they always lie when it comes to FE.
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Old 20th December 2005, 01:18   #40
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I wouldnt pay 1.5lacs more for a badge that says "H" on the grille. A 30k-40k more on the price tag is logical being a new car but thats about it.
Even then if the dealer/salesman acts like he is doing a favour on me by giving me the oppurtunity to buy a Honda, I'd say good bye!

Quote:
I agree honda makes good cars
on this one too. But that doesn't mean I have to pay a HUGE premium. Thank you but there are many equally good and even some better cars out there.

Last edited by amit : 20th December 2005 at 01:19.
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Old 20th December 2005, 02:40   #41
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i agree honda is the most fuel efficient car in the segment but its too overpriced.
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Old 20th December 2005, 03:50   #42
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Originally Posted by .anshuman
i agree honda is the most fuel efficient car in the segment but its too overpriced.
If you dont want to look at the open world, yes its the most fuel efficient car out there.



I just got an idea!!!!

How about selling fiat palios with a honda logo. THen people will start saying hey look this is the most Fuel-efficient car and its more powerful than the skoda RS.
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Old 20th December 2005, 14:50   #43
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In my openion, the company charges premium on their brands for the amount invested on improvising the technology. Honda may be charging more premium because of their effort for inventing most fuel efficient engine(IDSI) and most powerful engine(VTEC) in thier segment to serve different purposes. Other manufactures may not be charging the premium because they are providing decade old engines with few modifications to grill and the lights.

As I know, Maruti has not changed it's model's engine technology since their launch. Same applies to Ford (Ikon with same ROCAM engine) also.

The other manufactures like Toyota are also providing latest technology by charging some premium on their models.
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Old 20th December 2005, 21:20   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by narasimha raju
In my openion, the company charges premium on their brands for the amount invested on improvising the technology. Honda may be charging more premium because of their effort for inventing most fuel efficient engine(IDSI) and most powerful engine(VTEC) in thier segment to serve different purposes. Other manufactures may not be charging the premium because they are providing decade old engines with few modifications to grill and the lights.

As I know, Maruti has not changed it's model's engine technology since their launch. Same applies to Ford (Ikon with same ROCAM engine) also.

The other manufactures like Toyota are also providing latest technology by charging some premium on their models.

fiat had a revolutionary Torque engines and fire engines. Who bought them?
ford updated its engines with the introduction of NXT.
hyundai updated the accents engine from 1.5 to 1.6
mahindra has already undergone a seachange and a new scorpio ir around the corner
maruti updated the wagonR engine a long time ago and recently introduced ABS and airbags.
esteem has had 3 engine revisions.
mitsubishi has had the invecs(the more refined invecs-3 is due soon)
skoda has brought in all their engines available in the price range
tata also keeps on updating their engines as they learn.


so whats new with honda?

and what do you think of my proposition? I think of taking this idea to the fiat bosses in Italy.
selling fiat palios with a honda logo. THen people will start saying hey look this is the most Fuel-efficient car and its more powerful than the skoda RS.
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Old 20th December 2005, 22:41   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by devarshi84
fiat had a revolutionary Torque engines and fire engines. Who bought them?
Quote:
Originally Posted by devarshi84
ford updated its engines with the introduction of NXT.
hyundai updated the accents engine from 1.5 to 1.6
mahindra has already undergone a seachange and a new scorpio ir around the corner
maruti updated the wagonR engine a long time ago and recently introduced ABS and airbags.
esteem has had 3 engine revisions.
mitsubishi has had the invecs(the more refined invecs-3 is due soon)
skoda has brought in all their engines available in the price range
tata also keeps on updating their engines as they learn.


so whats new with honda?

and what do you think of my proposition? I think of taking this idea to the fiat bosses in Italy.
selling fiat palios with a honda logo. THen people will start saying hey look this is the most Fuel-efficient car and its more powerful than the skoda RS.
honda just introduced VTEC thats the latest update and apart from that honda engines are great so they dont need changes,their 77bhp car performs better than most 90+bhp cars isn't that enough ?
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