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Old 17th March 2013, 13:15   #31
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Default Re: Electric cars get subsidy booster of upto 1.0 lakh rupees

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Originally Posted by S_U_N View Post
Awesome. Let me build my farm house and I will incorporate this for sure.
BTW: Which car is equivalent of Nissan Leaf in India? I hope something better than Reva would be in your answer.
Also include battery costs (every 2 years or so) in the running costs.
If it's the equivalent of the Leaf, then you wouldn't need to include the battery costs every 2 years or so. I think Nissan guarantees the Leaf battery for 8 years.
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Old 17th March 2013, 13:30   #32
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Default Re: Electric cars get subsidy booster of upto 1.0 lakh rupees

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Originally Posted by hkollar View Post

It is possible to generate 1Kw power from solar PV panel of 100sft. A Parking area is typically 16ft x 9ft = 144sqft. So, it is possible to generate over 1unit per hour in the space you park a car.

Considering in India we get atleast 8 hours of sun a day, it is possible to generate 8-9Kwh per day.

Typical power consumption of a good electric car (Nissan Leaf for example) is about 1Kwh for every 4km - http://www.plugincars.com/nissan-lea...el-106486.html
Excellent. I hope this happens and we are able to contribute/benefit.

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Originally Posted by S_U_N View Post
Awesome. Let me build my farm house and I will incorporate this for sure.
BTW: Which car is equivalent of Nissan Leaf in India? I hope something better than Reva would be in your answer.
Also include battery costs (every 2 years or so) in the running costs.
Why farm house? We should try and install the panels where we live. It may be more economical to immigrate to Canada than to buy/build a farm house here .

I also don't like the looks of Reva and Leaf is not yet launched here. But I have not been personally contributing to the EV research so I try and avoid criticizing the industry/government. I ride my 11 years old Suzuki Fiero to office (45 kmpl) as much as I can, resting the cars (as much as I can). I hope it will save me enough carbon credits and money to pay for batteries when Leaf comes here .

Cheers!
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Old 17th March 2013, 18:48   #33
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Default Re: Electric cars get subsidy booster of upto 1.0 lakh rupees

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Originally Posted by hkollar View Post
I am replying to this old post, but Your calculations seemed a bit odd.

Rs.15/KWh of electricity in India? Where? Not unless you are using diesel generator to generate electricity.
That is the rate in Kerala if your consumption exceeds 300 units per cycle. Since most households who might be able to buy an electric car would be currently having at least a small fraction of usage in the 300+ slab, any additional consumption (for charging an EV) would be at this rate.

Here is the link that mentions the tariff hike: http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/...cle4194970.ece
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Old 18th March 2013, 13:29   #34
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Default Re: Electric cars get subsidy booster of upto 1.0 lakh rupees

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Originally Posted by S_U_N View Post
Awesome. Let me build my farm house and I will incorporate this for sure.
BTW: Which car is equivalent of Nissan Leaf in India? I hope something better than Reva would be in your answer.
Also include battery costs (every 2 years or so) in the running costs.
Just butting in:

We should not be considering the Reva right now, since it is on the verge of being replaced by the E20 from Mahindra quite soon, and this is a very different breed (both in looks and technology) from the original Reva that we are used to. The Batteries would not need to be replaced very 2 years either. My car parkings if I ever went in for an electric vehicle would allow enough space for 250-300 sq ft of solar panels the sun direction (not getting it blocked by the house itself) would be of concern though.
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Old 19th March 2013, 09:39   #35
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Default Re: Electric cars get subsidy booster of upto 1.0 lakh rupees

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Originally Posted by carboy View Post
If it's the equivalent of the Leaf, then you wouldn't need to include the battery costs every 2 years or so. I think Nissan guarantees the Leaf battery for 8 years.

Please check the specs of E2O. It is no longer 'reva'. Reva used the old Lead Acid batteries that don't have life.

E2O uses Lithium-Ion cells, which has a life span of 8-10 years. It's charge retaining capacity remains 80% of rated capacity even after 1,000 Full-recharge cycles. Typically 1,000 Full recharge cycle means you have already driven over 70,000Kms!!

You won't need to change Battery of E2O for atleast 8years. I will be surprised if Mahindra doesn't provide a extended battery waranty of 5-8 years.
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Old 19th March 2013, 09:53   #36
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Default Re: Electric cars get subsidy booster of upto 1.0 lakh rupees

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Originally Posted by ACM View Post
Just butting in:

We should not be considering the Reva right now, since it is on the verge of being replaced by the E20 from Mahindra quite soon, and this is a very different breed (both in looks and technology) from the original Reva that we are used to. The Batteries would not need to be replaced very 2 years either. My car parkings if I ever went in for an electric vehicle would allow enough space for 250-300 sq ft of solar panels the sun direction (not getting it blocked by the house itself) would be of concern though.
You can't consider REVA even if you wanted to. Mahindra stopped production of reva 6 months back. They aren't selling it anymore.

E2O uses Lithium-Ion cells that have long life. E2O doesn't even have an option for Lead-Acid batteries (initially they had thought of providing one), but wisely they haven't. Lead acid batteries are not suited for deep-discharge cycles, and get spoiled rather fast.


You don't need direct sun-light to generate power from Solar panels. Solar PV uses photons, so any bright light is sufficient for it to produce power. Having sun-light directly fall on panel produces "peak power". But, it is not a requirement.


If one has imagination, he can imagine a world within next decade, where Solar PVs will proliferate across India (starting from villages where we have 15hr power cuts). We'll see PVs being adopted instead of regular inverters to cope with power problem.

And within the next decade, it'll be far cheaper to drive a electric vehicle than any other type of vehicles. Current prices of Lithium-Ion cells are about US$600/Kwh. But, Nissan apparently has been able to bring down this cost substantially already. And most are predicting the battery prices will come down to US$200 to US$300 per Kwh, within next 5 yrs. When that happens, the electric car prices will compare very well with fossil fuel cars (especially diesel cars).

Besides, I have driven Leaf, Volt & Prius PHEV. The pleasure of driving these vehicles is unmatched by any fossil fuel vehicles. The torque is unbelievable (almost like a sports car). Practically soundless (except rolling noise). And can travel at dizzying speeds (check tesla, which is car of the year in USA).

Add to that the maintenance free nature of these cars. When was the last time you did any maintenance on your ceiling fan? It keeps rotating years on, without need for any maintenance.

The EV motors are like that. AC motors that barely need any maintenance.

So, within our life time world would start switching over to electric cars - en-masse.
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Old 19th March 2013, 09:58   #37
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Default Re: Electric cars get subsidy booster of upto 1.0 lakh rupees

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Originally Posted by zenren View Post
That is the rate in Kerala if your consumption exceeds 300 units per cycle. Since most households who might be able to buy an electric car would be currently having at least a small fraction of usage in the 300+ slab, any additional consumption (for charging an EV) would be at this rate.

Here is the link that mentions the tariff hike: http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/...cle4194970.ece
SAD!

At Rs.15, you can generate your own power using diesel! In fact, you can generate your own power using Solar for far cheaper than that.

Kerala Elec.Board is cheating people.

In Karnataka peak power price is about Rs.6/unit. According to this press release Kerala also has same price - http://www.erckerala.org/pressreleas...%20RELEASE.pdf


In any case, if your power tariff crosses Rs. 8/unit, you should install a Solar PV at home with 2Kwh capacity and be mostly self sufficient in power!!

You'll earn back your investment within 3-4yrs.
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Old 19th March 2013, 10:34   #38
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Default Re: Electric cars get subsidy booster of upto 1.0 lakh rupees

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That is an age old argument against electric vehicles, where the electricity would come, and it would inevitably pollute. Electric vehicles are NOT pollution free, but amount of pollution by running a electric vehicle for 50 kms (including the pollution caused to make that much energy) is quite less compared to 50 kms worth petrol/disel burnt.

Please correct me if I am wrong.
Credit to you, atleast you think you might be wrong.
well, Generating Electricity , with only Exception of Solar Panels , and then driving a Vehicle with it is never going to be as efficient as actually converting Chemical energy to mechanical directly on an automobile. Until ofcourse we find breakthrough technology.

Specially in India where Non-Renewable souces contribute to less than 8% of Total Electricity, majority is being made by Coal fed and Diesel plants.
Even Dams are not totally Polution free, And lets not get into Enviornmental Issues of Dams.

Diesel engines in todays automobiles is far more efficient than Our coal furnace, however I know that elec power plants on Mega scale become quite efficient, but add to that Transmission losses of more than 50% , stepping up and stepping down of power and Transmission lines losses /eddy losses contributing to it.
Forgetting Power theft, then charging batteries from that power and then againg converting it into mechanical energy using a motor.
Here you are converting form of energy several times more than you do in An automobile with IC engine.
In a car, Cumbustion to mechanical energy :- usable energy for car straight away.

So for me , present generation EV is just garbage, may save some carbon on final user account but ultimately someone somewhere is screwing the Earth.
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Old 19th March 2013, 11:14   #39
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Default Re: Electric cars get subsidy booster of upto 1.0 lakh rupees

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Credit to you, atleast you think you might be wrong.
well, Generating Electricity , with only Exception of Solar Panels , and then driving a Vehicle with it is never going to be as efficient as actually converting Chemical energy to mechanical directly on an automobile. Until ofcourse we find breakthrough technology.


So for me , present generation EV is just garbage, may save some carbon on final user account but ultimately someone somewhere is screwing the Earth.
Why are you exempting Solar panels ? If i am not wrong, manufacturing Solar cell is not an easy process and is going to pollute as well.

Only advantage of electric vehicles is keeping our roads/cities pollution free. Its like a Sci-fi movie, In future we are going to live inside a giant dome driving electric vehicles and outside, we will have source of electricity causing all the pollution. !!
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Old 19th March 2013, 11:21   #40
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Default Re: Electric cars get subsidy booster of upto 1.0 lakh rupees

There are two major issues:

There is no part (maybe Gujarat exempted) which is power surplus. Thankfully we will not be seeing a wholesale adoption of Electric vehicles. On a lighter note, Why did you not come to work yesterday? There was a power cut so my battery could not be charged.

Also, the life and cost of battery replacement, will change the economics a lot.

I think right now we need hybrids and not pure electrics.
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Old 19th March 2013, 11:31   #41
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Default Re: Electric cars get subsidy booster of upto 1.0 lakh rupees

EV vehicles are good for the environment (even if one considers the Coal / Gas / fuel used in generating electricity) and can be fun.

But for a person to buy say an E20 lets compare it to the Nano.

The E20 may be fresher and so look good but then the Nano looks too have been appreciated so that one is equal.

Nano though does have the advantage in space.

The E20 will land OTR around 6.5L in Mumbai vs the Nano top end model at about 2.4L OTR in Mumbai so with the Nano you save a huge 4.1L .

With the E20 you get an AT the Nano AT is not an AT.

The Nano though is quite fuel effecient - 20 kmpl values have been reported by many.

Rs. 410,000 = 5466 liters of Petrol @Rs.75 = 109,333 kms.

Plus 410,000 in the Bank gets you atleast another Rs. 35,000 per year which by itself is good for another 9,333 kms more per year.

Considering the Range and charge time of the E20 one is not really likely to put in any where close to the figures mentioned above to make it worthwhile even if electricity was free - which it isn't. (the Solar panel too will have a cost). And here I have neither considered the cost of the panel or the electricity sourced from the Board.

In time yes cost of petrol will go up but then so will the cost of electricity from the grid atleast. But here the problem is that even if the solar panel was included in the pricing of 6.5L (assume free as it's cost will come down over time) and electricity were free yet the calculations are not in favour of E20 vs the equivalent Nano or for that matter even the Alto.

So yes one can buy the E20 for some fun and to make a statement but not really to save money. Yep even if Solar Panels were free in 10 years time the bigger challenge is the vehicle cost itself. And let us be sure that if all vehicles were indeed Electric vehicles then they would not be getting the tax breaks that they get right now - the govt will have to charge this tax somewhere finally.

This may be the future but lets keep at the best a 20 year period till this makes it to mainstream - 10 years is too short.
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Old 19th March 2013, 11:38   #42
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Originally Posted by sgiitk View Post
There are two major issues:

There is no part (maybe Gujarat exempted) which is power surplus. Thankfully we will not be seeing a wholesale adoption of Electric vehicles. On a lighter note, Why did you not come to work yesterday? There was a power cut so my battery could not be charged.

Also, the life and cost of battery replacement, will change the economics a lot.

I think right now we need hybrids and not pure electrics.
1+ , thats what I meant, until we see game changing tech in power storage and power generation, likes of fuel cell of low cost, fusion mini reactors, hypercyrogenics we would be burning liquid fuel of some sort for decades to come
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Old 19th March 2013, 11:46   #43
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EV vehicles are good for the environment (even if one considers the Coal / Gas / fuel used in generating electricity) and can be fun.

But for a person to buy say an E20 lets compare it to the Nano.

The E20 may be fresher and so look good but then the Nano looks too have been appreciated so that one is equal.

Nano though does have the advantage in space.

The E20 will land OTR around 6.5L in Mumbai vs the Nano top end model at about 2.4L OTR in Mumbai so with the Nano you save a huge 4.1L .

With the E20 you get an AT the Nano AT is not an AT.

The Nano though is quite fuel effecient - 20 kmpl values have been reported by many.

Rs. 410,000 = 5466 liters of Petrol @Rs.75 = 109,333 kms.

Plus 410,000 in the Bank gets you atleast another Rs. 35,000 per year which by itself is good for another 9,333 kms more per year.

Considering the Range and charge time of the E20 one is not really likely to put in any where close to the figures mentioned above to make it worthwhile even if electricity was free - which it isn't. (the Solar panel too will have a cost). And here I have neither considered the cost of the panel or the electricity sourced from the Board.

In time yes cost of petrol will go up but then so will the cost of electricity from the grid atleast. But here the problem is that even if the solar panel was included in the pricing of 6.5L (assume free as it's cost will come down over time) and electricity were free yet the calculations are not in favour of E20 vs the equivalent Nano or for that matter even the Alto.

So yes one can buy the E20 for some fun and to make a statement but not really to save money. Yep even if Solar Panels were free in 10 years time the bigger challenge is the vehicle cost itself. And let us be sure that if all vehicles were indeed Electric vehicles then they would not be getting the tax breaks that they get right now - the govt will have to charge this tax somewhere finally.

This may be the future but lets keep at the best a 20 year period till this makes it to mainstream - 10 years is too short.
How do you explain this statement? How are they good for enviornment?
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Old 19th March 2013, 11:50   #44
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I dont think any electric car is good for environment. It is a myth. There are batteries in the electric cars that have lead in them. Disposing lead is next to impossible as it is one of the most non degradable metals around. We would end up with more and more lead poisoning which is far more dangerous to our environment than the carbon footprint of any of the existing petrol or diesel cars
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Old 19th March 2013, 12:02   #45
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Default Re: Electric cars get subsidy booster of upto 1.0 lakh rupees

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Why are you exempting Solar panels ? If i am not wrong, manufacturing Solar cell is not an easy process and is going to pollute as well.

Only advantage of electric vehicles is keeping our roads/cities pollution free. Its like a Sci-fi movie, In future we are going to live inside a giant dome driving electric vehicles and outside, we will have source of electricity causing all the pollution. !!

There is a lot of misconception about how EVs can't clean environment.

Electricity is produced as part of a pyramid. On top of the pyramid is what is called the 'peak power' which is normally produced using Diesel. This is typically the small slice at the top (10-15%).

At the bottom of pyramid you have 'base load', these generating stations have high start-stop times. i.e. Nuclear and Thermal stations. To bring up these stations to optimal capacity (or bring them down) can take weeks. So, they keep running it 24/7 once it reaches optimal capacity.

Hydro power is the cheapest, and the power production can be increased/decreased in matter of hours. So, they use it in the middle section.

Solar (& other non-renewable sources) are not useful without a storage medium - which currently is battery. Thus, these are more expensive than conventional methods. But, they are extremely useful as a feeder to the grid. i.e. during day time they can bring down the usage of other types of electricity production.

The highest amount of carbon emission happens in uncontrolled burning of fossil fuels in smaller generators or vehicles. In large power plants, they can do what is called 'Carbon capture'. There are coal powered plants that have 'zero emission' now!!

A study in USA has indicated that if all of USA switched over to electricity, the electric demand in USA will only rise by 10%, that is not a significant rise in demand, and huge reduction in emission by vehicles.

So, within next couple of decades, technologies will develop, that'll provide clean energy (with very low carbon footprint), as long as the end-consumer is not polluting.

It is very expensive to do carbon capture in a vehicle exhaust pipe. Future belongs to clean energy and Electic Vehicles.

Shell - one of the biggest oil companies in the world has said that within 80 years, world will largely run on renewable energy.

Last edited by hkollar : 19th March 2013 at 12:31.
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