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Old 26th November 2010, 12:43   #106
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Originally Posted by ampere View Post
Not to mention Fusion! Why? I have been driving for the last 6 years and still continue to like it every bit. That was also the precise reason, why I chose Fusion over the NHC. The high GC and the 100BHP has been an immense help both on the highway and in the city.

Yes I am precisely looking at the Fusion category like Cross Overs. The current power hatches (Polo/Fabia 1.6) and I20 CRDI according to me still do not match the Fusion either on size or other parameters (Debatable topic).


As you said Fusion was way ahead of its time. It was competing in a segment where folks paying more than 8L wanted to see a boot to create an image. But now times have changed and audiences have matured to accept such different cross-over concepts.
Amp, I seriously contemplated on the Fusion 1.6 two years back for most of the reasons you have mentioned. No doubt, I had voted this car from the Ford stable for its practical looks and the amazing space and GC, not to forget that 1.6L Engine with 100 Horses doing their duty great enough to zip over the highways . By looking at the car, one could make out that it would take on bad roads easily as compared to low floored sedans.

When I went for a TD, The only problem I faced was the headroom since I am 6' 3" and despite of lowering the seat height (I can't recall whether this option on only in the Petrol or the Diesel) and still my head was touching the roof.

Having driven the tallboy WagonR for more than a lakh kilometers I would still expect something on the lines of Fusion as my next buy. I always love it.

Honestly, I was very disappointed realising this and shelved my plans.

On the other hand, my recent trips to Calicut (Ghats) and Pune (Speedbreakers on the C'durga-Haveri Stretch) in an ANHC was full of scraping the underbelly right from the nose all the way till the exhaust with 4 adults. I can think of a Sedan only when the roads are good.

How many times will one need to cautiously think about the road conditions and then decide whether the car can manage those roads or not or may be even decide whether to drive there or not? I never knew the Waynad Ghats or the Calicut-Mahe stretch will be so bad this year that even entering potholes was scraping the front of the ANHC and it was paining!!

My personal vote will always be a Crossover like car like the Fusion anyday and I wish it gets reintroduced.

Last edited by paragsachania : 26th November 2010 at 12:46.
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Old 26th November 2010, 12:53   #107
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I personally don't need an SUV as it is too wide and too long to pass through crowded markets
This too wide and too long thing often used by SUV detractors need to be studied. Do you know a Cielo is longer than Scorpio and almost as wide? Ok Cielo is long gone but I am only giving you an idea. So, all top end sedans are actually longer than Scorpio and almost as wide. And speaking about peak traffic and parking woes, these days you won't find space to park even a Nano.
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Old 26th November 2010, 13:27   #108
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Originally Posted by paragsachania View Post
Amp, I seriously contemplated on the Fusion 1.6 two years back for most of the reasons you have mentioned. No doubt, I had voted this car from the Ford stable for its practical looks and the amazing space and GC, not to forget that 1.6L Engine with 100 Horses doing their duty great enough to zip over the highways . By looking at the car, one could make out that it would take on bad roads easily as compared to low floored sedans.

When I went for a TD, The only problem I faced was the headroom since I am 6' 3" and despite of lowering the seat height (I can't recall whether this option on only in the Petrol or the Diesel) and still my head was touching the roof.

Having driven the tallboy WagonR for more than a lakh kilometers I would still expect something on the lines of Fusion as my next buy. I always love it.

Honestly, I was very disappointed realising this and shelved my plans.

On the other hand, my recent trips to Calicut (Ghats) and Pune (Speedbreakers on the C'durga-Haveri Stretch) in an ANHC was full of scraping the underbelly right from the nose all the way till the exhaust with 4 adults. I can think of a Sedan only when the roads are good.

How many times will one need to cautiously think about the road conditions and then decide whether the car can manage those roads or not or may be even decide whether to drive there or not? I never knew the Waynad Ghats or the Calicut-Mahe stretch will be so bad this year that even entering potholes was scraping the front of the ANHC and it was paining!!

My personal vote will always be a Crossover like car like the Fusion anyday and I wish it gets reintroduced.
Very well said Parag. But as you said for 6.3, it would be a tad difficult. But I have enjoyed the ownership to my heart's content. And that is also the reason, every time I get the thought of replacement, I feel dis-comforted, that I may end up buying ANHC, just because there is no replacement to my Fusion. In fact of the 75K I have driven till date, not a single under-belly scraping till date! That speaks volumes about the car.

I hope more cross-overs arrive on Indian shores, by the time its a "must" for me to change.

All we need is good power , high GC and a for a 5 seater PLUS space, we will have a very good X-Over.
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Old 26th November 2010, 14:25   #109
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Default Speed-breaker

If you climb up the speed-breaker and then turn right/left along the incline so that only one wheel climbs down from the inclination first followed shortly by the other should help in not scraping the belly as suspension elevation is stretched.

I mean suppose you are turning right while you are on the speed-breaker, then the left wheel will come on the other side first and play along with clutch(maybe not with the Yeti)

I am sorry, but couldn't explain this better, if someone can, do. By following the above method, the scraping underbelly syndrome is reduced to just one or max two over a long period of time.

National Highways have long stretches of bad roads? Have heard good things about the roads in South/West.
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Old 26th November 2010, 14:29   #110
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If you climb up the speed-breaker and then turn right/left along the incline so that only one wheel climbs down from the inclination first followed shortly by the other should help in not scraping the belly as suspension elevation is stretched.

I mean suppose you are turning right while you are on the speed-breaker, then the left wheel will come on the other side first and play along with clutch(maybe not with the Yeti)

I am sorry, but couldn't explain this better, if someone can, do. By following the above method, the scraping underbelly syndrome is reduced to just one or max two over a long period of time.

National Highways have long stretches of bad roads? Have heard good things about the roads in South/West.
Perfect! This works. I have been doing this for years now. Also, a lot of times, I see people scraping the under-bellies of their cars, because they do not choose their left wheel track correctly through bad stretches. People usually manage the right wheel track very well.

But, this still does not take the Sedan into SUV territory. With SUV's most of the times, you do not need to do this type of juggling.
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Old 26th November 2010, 15:05   #111
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Originally Posted by pgsagar View Post
This too wide and too long thing often used by SUV detractors need to be studied. Do you know a Cielo is longer than Scorpio and almost as wide? Ok Cielo is long gone but I am only giving you an idea. So, all top end sedans are actually longer than Scorpio and almost as wide. And speaking about peak traffic and parking woes, these days you won't find space to park even a Nano.
Most sedans/cars are under 1700mm wide. While SUVs are usually 1850mm or more. Sedans have aerodynamic bodies and are more fuel efficient. Anyway the point is: Do we have any sedan/hatchback which has decent ground clearnace (180mm+) and sells decent numbers! NONE. So where does one look?
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Old 26th November 2010, 15:07   #112
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Originally Posted by Sheel View Post
If you climb up the speed-breaker and then turn right/left along the incline so that only one wheel climbs down from the inclination first followed shortly by the other should help in not scraping the belly as suspension elevation is stretched.

I mean suppose you are turning right while you are on the speed-breaker, then the left wheel will come on the other side first and play along with clutch(maybe not with the Yeti)

I am sorry, but couldn't explain this better, if someone can, do. By following the above method, the scraping underbelly syndrome is reduced to just one or max two over a long period of time.

National Highways have long stretches of bad roads? Have heard good things about the roads in South/West.
This is the best way to avoid scraping the underbelly agreed (and have tried this since years) but on how many occasions one will be able to manage taking one wheel at a time considering traffic around you?

The width required to maneuver in this manner is substantially more as compared to doing it in a straight line.

When you slow down to an almost zero kmph speed while negotiating a speedbreaker (and like you say, One wheel at a time), the truck that you just overtook will suddenly be on your left/right to jump over the very same speedbreaker. I have witnessed honking even from SUVs whenever I have slowed down to negotiate a speedbreaker in a straight line.

Let alone highways with a median, what about two laned roads where there is ample traffic flowing from the opposite direction.

This practice can be followed only where the traffic is considerably less and there is enough room to do so.

Last edited by paragsachania : 26th November 2010 at 15:10.
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Old 26th November 2010, 15:14   #113
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Originally Posted by roy_libran View Post
But, this still does not take the Sedan into SUV territory. With SUV's most of the times, you do not need to do this type of juggling.
It is not taking it into any category, it is a way to judiciously use whatever you have. (the GC or the lack of it here)
Thanks


Quote:
Originally Posted by paragsachania
This is the best way to avoid scraping the underbelly agreed (and have tried this since years) but on how many occasions one will be able to manage taking one wheel at a time considering traffic around you?
Most of the traffic are considerate and do understand this part and for some who don't, I make my intentions clear and try doing it w/o taking much space.

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Originally Posted by paragsachania
This practice can be followed only where the traffic is considerably less and there is enough room to do so.
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Old 26th November 2010, 16:20   #114
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Default My 2 cents...

Most of the points that have been listed as advantages for sedans are technically true, but are just not applicable in everyday life (read home-office-home commutes, shopping trips and weekend short trips). Let's face it, 90% of the (non-transport) cars spend more than 90% of their running lives in the city, battling stop-n-go traffic.

For example, I have not seen anyone taking full advantage of their cars' performance or cornering abilities on an everyday basis (except BPO and call-center drivers, who take undue advantage of it ).

Similarly, ride quality does not play a significant role for everyday city commuting. In fact, SUVs score here because of their higher GC, which helps in absorbing all those wicked potholes and illegal "car-breakers" in your stride. Plus, they are spacious, which means 3 people can comfortably sit in the 2nd row, unlike most sedans. Again, when the 2nd row is fully occupied in a sedan (read 3 people), the rear suspension is invariably bogged down, severely affecting the vehicles ride quality. This also leads to more scraping on potholes and car-breakers. This never happens in an SUV, unless it's suspension has gone kaput.

Depth of engineering is a very very subjective issue, and in this debate, also a non-issue. As someone rightly said, lots of bells and whistles in a car do not necessarily mean advanced technology. In my view, in city traffic, it really doesn't matter whether a certain car has drum brakes or disc brakes, as long as they do their job well, i.e. stopping the car within a certain safe distance.

Ease of maneuverability is again a subjective issue. It really depends on the dimensions and turning radius of both vehicles. The SUVs will definitely be harder to maneuver than most smaller sedans, but easier to maneuver than most of the bigger sedans that we have. As for parking, it is true that an SUV needs more space, but the trouble can be mitigated by careful pre-planning (identifying and memorizing parking zones before reaching the destination). This requires a bit of practice.

The points I feel that really highlight the advantages of sedans are:

1. Fuel Efficiency.
2. Cost.
3. Parking slot size (at home).
4. Petrol (but diesel engines are getting better 'n' better everyday).
5. Choices (these will get better as young India's purchasing power gets better).

As for SUVs, advantages like

1. Ability to handle rough roads.
2. High perched driving position.
3. Space.
4. Hauling Capacity.
5. Muscle.

are real positives that make it a "must-have" for our maddening city roads and insane traffic.

A couple of months ago, in my quest for the middle path of this very debate, I finally settled on the (used) Tata Sierra Turbo. I am a die-hard Sierra fan, but I also realized that this car comes closest to what I would look for in a "mini-SUV". When I suggested this to my family, they asked "Why not Safari?" I said I didn't want the extra seats and added length, which would make it a pain to drive in the city.

Now, I have been driving the MS WagonR around for 6 years, and that car fulfils most of my practical requirements, including hauling huge loads (thanks to the rear folding split seats). But what I didn't like was it's low GC, thanks to the famed pot-holes and "car-breakers" in Pune, not to mention the "work-in-progress-till-eternity" roads. The sheer lack of road presence was what really got to me. The auto-drivers were ever-willing to rub shoulders with me, and cyclists and bikers cut across like I just didn't exist.

All that changed the day I set out in my Sierra. Suddenly, I could see the traffic for miles ahead. All those sedans/hatches looked like herds of sheep, and I could see right above them, across their roofs. Pot-holes and "car-breakers" could be conveniently ignored, like they didn't exist. Auto-drivers shuddered in fear, cyclists and bikers began to part like the Red Sea before Moses. I was the king of the road!!!

That apart, the humongous sofa-like seats are a treat to sit "in" (not "on"). Also, the smaller dimensions (relative to other SUVs) make driving and parking easier.

In short, it is an SUV, minus all the negatives associated with an SUV.

I really feel it is time to revive the Tata Sierra, and/or introduce the Ford Bronco 2 in the Indian market. I am sure they will sell like hot cakes.

- Bullitt.
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Old 26th November 2010, 16:44   #115
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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
SUMMARY
In a nutshell, buy an SUV only if you need the three rows of seats, rough road package or AWD. But for all things else, there is no substitute for the driving pleasure that a powerful sedan or hatchback can give you.
Thank you for the crispness and crystal clarity analysis. You surely have a very keen analytical ability!

Can you in your mind flip your analysis to the more difficult terrain of mapping driving styles that are SUITED to these categories of vehicles. The value I believe is more often you have driving styles crossing over than the vehicle capabilities. Some call taxi drivers drive their Sumo's like autos and bikes -

For e.g.

Advantage Sedan-at-heart driver
  • You tend to push the gas hard and take off like a rocket.
  • You tend to go right upto the vehicle in front at high speed and brake dangerously close. or even if you dont scare your fellow passengers, you know it will stop where you want it to.
  • You tend to weave in and out of traffic with ease and it grows on you.
  • You are always reassuring your co-passengers - "Dont worry! I know my driving!"
  • You tend to push the gas hard and take off like a rocket.
  • Please add to this....

Advantage SUV-at-heart driver
  • You sit like you are in a battle tank. You like commanding views.
  • You tend to give way to honking nuisance.
  • You tend to stick to your lane.
  • You like using all your mirrors.
  • You tend to judge the traffic and road ahead.
  • Please add to this....

I think one might decide for each, SUV or SEDAN by figuring out your driving style and matching it to the requirements. Especially based on what roads one drives on.

NOTE: Just as there are those ambidextrous people out here who can write with both hands, I am sure they have both temperaments. Those do choose both the SUV and SEDAN, assuming their pocket strings stretch .
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Old 26th November 2010, 18:19   #116
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Originally Posted by dhuli View Post

Advantage Sedan-at-heart driver
  • You tend to push the gas hard and take off like a rocket.
  • You tend to go right upto the vehicle in front at high speed and brake dangerously close. or even if you dont scare your fellow passengers, you know it will stop where you want it to.
  • You tend to weave in and out of traffic with ease and it grows on you.
  • You are always reassuring your co-passengers - "Dont worry! I know my driving!"
  • You tend to push the gas hard and take off like a rocket.
  • Please add to this....
Advantage SUV-at-heart driver
  • You sit like you are in a battle tank. You like commanding views.
  • You tend to give way to honking nuisance.
  • You tend to stick to your lane.
  • You like using all your mirrors.
  • You tend to judge the traffic and road ahead.
  • Please add to this....

+10 to this. even i feel the same.

but the general conception in T-BHP is the opoosite, that SUV drivers are rash. i think that generalization is because of idiotic call centre Sumo guys.
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Old 26th November 2010, 18:27   #117
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Originally Posted by dhuli View Post
...figuring out your driving style and matching it to the requirements. Especially based on what roads one drives on.

NOTE: Just as there are those ambidextrous people out here who can write with both hands, I am sure they have both temperaments.
IMO there's no variation of driving style between a sedan and SUV. Those who actually change their driving style from car to car must be extremely lucky, but a safe driver WILL continue to drive safe whether in a sedan or SUV - and a bad driver will continue to drive equally badly in either type of vehicle. Only difference is, in an SUV, a bad driver will manage to terrorise other road users more easily than in a sedan.

Last edited by SS-Traveller : 26th November 2010 at 18:28.
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Old 26th November 2010, 19:28   #118
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but a safe driver WILL continue to drive safe whether in a sedan or SUV - and a bad driver will continue to drive equally badly in either type of vehicle. Only difference is, in an SUV, a bad driver will manage to terrorise other road users more easily than in a sedan.
IMHO the worst (on an average basis) can still be rated based on type of vehicle...
any guesses ?

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Old 26th November 2010, 23:16   #119
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IMHO the worst (on an average basis) can still be rated based on type of vehicle...
any guesses ?

Cheers
Do you mean the worst driven vehicles on Indian roads? Well, these are Indica, Sumo, Innova and Scorpio ( taxi versions of these cars ). In case of Scorpios, apart from taxis, the politician/real estate/goon types who think "ye planet un salon ke baap ka hai."
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Old 27th November 2010, 07:17   #120
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IMHO no vehicle can compete with AUTOS in terms of worst driven vehicle causing huge amount of nuisance to each and every (incl other Autos) driver.
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