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View Poll Results: Should SUV owners pay market price for diesel?
Yes 235 64.56%
No 110 30.22%
I am not sure 19 5.22%
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Old 24th January 2011, 14:16   #166
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Default Re: Should SUV owners pay market price for Diesel?

I understand. Same problem here. When you see the increasing disparity between rich, middle and poor, it is a recipe for discontent and may lead to disastrous consequences.
In India though, Politics and Films are like Religion and together these are, to paraphrase Lenin, the opiates of the masses.
Conspicuous consumption can lead to the decline and downfall - look at the Roman Empire.

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I hope (and pray) not. But this is how the seeds of revolution are sown, historically. The current situation is fast becoming a tinder box. All it will need is a spark at the right time for the fires to start.

The poor and marginalized contrasting the sullen, malnourished faces of their children against conspicuous living by a section of people they see around them is a recipe for disaster. For them I may look rich, however hoarse I may cry that I am salaried middle class.

It is our good fortune that these people are infatuated with idiotic political parties and the left is unable to organize them in cities, unlike their naxal counterparts in some of the hinterlands. Why else is the govt unable to stamp out the naxals in their areas? Because they have support at the grassroots level.
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Old 24th January 2011, 14:28   #167
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Default Re: Should SUV owners pay market price for Diesel?

Leaving diesel prices alone, I am not sure the current price rise is fully demand driven. I have a feeling speculation and hoarding play a large part as well.

As and when diesel prices are increased, there will be a general rise in prices of other commodities as a result. But they will not come down when price of diesel falls again! Similar to auto fares in Chennai which increase in inverse proportion to Petrol prices, but stay there even when petrol price falls to the earlier levels, awaiting the next increase!
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Old 24th January 2011, 14:31   #168
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Default Re: Should SUV owners pay market price for Diesel?

I fully support the above point.the sad part in india is that all commodities are sold & resold multiple times & each time the bloodsucking government earns by way of taxes.the poor man bears the brunt as the same is extracted from people like us
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Old 24th January 2011, 14:36   #169
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Leaving diesel prices alone, I am not sure the current price rise is fully demand driven. I have a feeling speculation and hoarding play a large part as well.
What else you expect when central government is pumping in close to 80,000 Crore ruppees every year in the name of National Rural Employment Guarentee Scheme , It is hurting the same people who are supposed to get guarenteed employment by spiraling inflation.

The biggest flaw of this scheme is that almost entire money is marked for wages with no emphasis on creation of permanent infrastructure such as roads, dams , schools etc. by means of project cost.

Now as everything in India I would say some 80% of this huge money lines up pockets of middleman and corrupt and that is what is fueling the consumer boom. Too much of liquid money is jacking up the land prices as the black money can not be utilized for any other productive use like running industry or investment. And also this money is utilized for spending by this class causing an inflation due to too much of liquidity.

To curb this liquidity RBI hikes various rates in it's policy review but this is double whamy becuase RBIs liquidity cuts harm the productivity and industry where as the NREGS fuelled liquidity continues unabated.

Now add various other kinds of liquidity infused by several scams and the picture becomes more grim.
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Old 24th January 2011, 14:36   #170
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Default Re: Should SUV owners pay market price for Diesel?

It is better the Govt to NOT to provide subsidy for any kind of hydrocarbons Diesel/Petrol/LPG/CNG / Kerosine etc.

Regularize the central+state taxes on Hydrocarbons to a maximum 10%.

Stop life time road taxing based on vehicle value. Fix road tax based on Gross vehicle weight and make it annual and epayment.

Bad governance at state and centre at all levels. Revolution will start from Tamilnadu with current level of ramphant corruption.

Winston Churchill's stand is vindicated today by indian corrupt politicos and bureaucrats on how inefficient Indians would be in adminstring themselves

Impartial Rule of law must prevail in India. How and when? Revolution is the way to bring healthy changes in Indian Govt administrations.

Revolution can be thwarted if efforts succeed in Bringing back all the Indian politicos swindled corruption money 20 lakhs crores stashed in swiss banks.
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Old 24th January 2011, 18:23   #171
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Default Re: Should SUV owners pay market price for Diesel?

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Originally Posted by harimakesh View Post

Winston Churchill's stand is vindicated today by indian corrupt politicos and bureaucrats on how inefficient Indians would be in adminstring themselves
Corruption is not a reason to, not to have freedom. Well, our Babu's and Neta's misunderstood it as freedom to corrupt

I think no party is showing the cost to run the party (probably CPi/CPM may be exemption).
New parties are mushrooming and say they will contain corruption. None are ready to reveal their expenses and source.

To run a party, enormous money is required. When nothing is free, where the fund is coming from?

Is that corruption a cost for having Pseudo/Immature Democracy?

Last edited by KumaravelS : 24th January 2011 at 18:25. Reason: punctuation
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Old 24th January 2011, 19:21   #172
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Originally Posted by amitk26 View Post
What else you expect when central government is pumping in close to 80,000 Crore ruppees every year in the name of National Rural Employment Guarentee Scheme , It is hurting the same people who are supposed to get guarenteed employment by spiraling inflation.

This is similar to the brute force attack principle. You want 1Re to reach the guy at the end. But you know that 90% of that 1 Re will be eaten in the middle due to corruption. So you pump in 10 Rs in the hope that the actual beneficiary will get 1 Re. These are govt. schemes for you.


The biggest flaw of this scheme is that almost entire money is marked for wages with no emphasis on creation of permanent infrastructure such as roads, dams , schools etc. by means of project cost.

It was actually all there. The actual programme included creation of such infrastructure in the first phase and then using that infrastructure to provide education, kick start agriculture etc. But as per reports on 34% of the first phase is complete a year or two back.
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Originally Posted by harimakesh View Post

Winston Churchill's stand is vindicated today by indian corrupt politicos and bureaucrats on how inefficient Indians would be in adminstring themselves

Every generation has a responsibility to protect and safeguard freedom. That was a key understanding that I feel has failed here. The Indian generation of Churchill's time got it for us.
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I think no party is showing the cost to run the party (probably CPi/CPM may be exemption).

Now which segment of the society is showing the way forward as far as corruption is concerned? A government is but a mirror of the society I believe.

Is that corruption a cost for having Pseudo/Immature Democracy?

Nope. A cost for having people who want Democracy for FREE
Drive on,
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Old 24th January 2011, 19:33   #173
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Default Re: Should SUV owners pay market price for Diesel?

Shibu I think you need to check the NREGS program first hand.
1. The program clearly outlines that not more then 10% of the project can be for anything other then wages. About the other programs which you mentioned such as PM rural road projects they are not part of NREGS. It would have been better if they would have linked NHAI projects or rural road schemes with NREGA but for political reasons they are kept separate

2. Brute force ?? It is program designed to keep the pockets of political functionaries lined with no defined tracking mechanism else they would have linked NREGS wages to the projects being executed in the area.


PM being economist knows very well that any expenditure which pumps liquidity in economy with out matching absorption will cause spiralling inflation but we all know how much control he has on things.

Diesel price control as means to control inflation are actually small fry in overall scheme of things and designed to hoodwink the people.


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Originally Posted by shibujp View Post



Originally Posted by amitk26 (Should SUV owners pay market price for Diesel?)
What else you expect when central government is pumping in close to 80,000 Crore ruppees every year in the name of National Rural Employment Guarentee Scheme , It is hurting the same people who are supposed to get guarenteed employment by spiraling inflation.

This is similar to the brute force attack principle. You want 1Re to reach the guy at the end. But you know that 90% of that 1 Re will be eaten in the middle due to corruption. So you pump in 10 Rs in the hope that the actual beneficiary will get 1 Re. These are govt. schemes for you.


The biggest flaw of this scheme is that almost entire money is marked for wages with no emphasis on creation of permanent infrastructure such as roads, dams , schools etc. by means of project cost.

It was actually all there. The actual programme included creation of such infrastructure in the first phase and then using that infrastructure to provide education, kick start agriculture etc. But as per reports on 34% of the first phase is complete a year or two back.


Drive on,
Shibu
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Old 24th January 2011, 20:47   #174
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Default Re: Should SUV owners pay market price for Diesel?

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Originally Posted by shankar.balan View Post
Did you see the papers this morning?

Even the price of milk is going up by Rs 4/- per litre in Bangalore!

In the end it is always the middle classes that get thrammed.

It is really the thin end of the wedge!
I can digest that, We used to have cows way back. Do you know how much work it involves and how much it costs to keep one? Its 42 Rupees for a kilo of cattle feed pellets which a cow needs two kilos every day. It costs more than diesel in my state. And cows are yielding lesser and lesser with every year. Even hay alone which you have to feed a cow amounts to 100 Rupees a day down here.

And do the maths and I'm only putting in the feed expenses, One cow = 20 litres of milk = 300 bucks for the farmer. He spends Rs 184 to get Rs 300. Whats his toil worth? A paltry Rs. 116. And the farmer who has the cow and ensures you have a bottle of milk at your door gets no subsidy for cattle feed. Its better to go and beg for him. I even dont mind paying 30 rupees for a litre of milk. At least its for bare sustenance. Even the guy who sells street food on a cart down the alley gets no subsidy for the gas or kerosene he uses, Then why for the Autos, Taxis and private cars.

Speaking of Diesel auto taxi operators. They are making huge profits now. Their Ape Autos run 28 kmpl on Diesel and they charge 15 rupees for a kilometer. Look at the maths, Fill Diesel for 40 Rs, Run 28 Kms, Get 420 as fare -40 = 380 Rs. and its just for 28 Kms. Autos on average run 150-200 Kms over here. (The rates mentioned are applicable to Kerala). Why should they get that subsidy?

I guess Diesel is still cheaper when to compared to Cattle feed or vegetables even now and I strongly believe that the government should not increase the price of Diesel, But slap an additional tax on all diesel cars and throw that money into and for increasing food production. I wonder why they are hesitating to do this. Its the easy and only way out.

Last edited by jalex77 : 24th January 2011 at 21:06.
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Old 24th January 2011, 21:38   #175
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Default Re: Should SUV owners pay market price for Diesel?

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I guess Diesel is still cheaper when to compared to Cattle feed or vegetables even now and I strongly believe that the government should not increase the price of Diesel, But slap an additional tax on all diesel cars and throw that money into and for increasing food production. I wonder why they are hesitating to do this. Its the easy and only way out.
cant agree with you more. the govt must heavily tax diesel cars/suvs* with say an extra 25% of ex-showroom cost. this is the only way to ensure that diesel subsidies are enjoyed by the deserving and needy.

* mind you, there must be clear classifications of suv/muv/ppl carrier etc. before this diesel car tax could be implemented.
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Old 24th January 2011, 22:45   #176
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cant agree with you more. the govt must heavily tax diesel cars/suvs* with say an extra 25% of ex-showroom cost. this is the only way to ensure that diesel subsidies are enjoyed by the deserving and needy.

* mind you, there must be clear classifications of suv/muv/ppl carrier etc. before this diesel car tax could be implemented.

Can you please explain why not on Diesel gen-sets ? They consume far more Diesel then non=commercial vehicles . Every building / office in metros have a huge genset If you just check the KW assured to each occupant of building X efficiency of generator you can calculate approximate Diesel consumed.
It stems from failure of government to generate adequate electricity, but I am sure crowd here will not bay for that.

Having said that I would say whole subsidy farce should go , Price them at market rate and levy tax roughly at the same rate as you levy on other commodity consumables like steel , cement , edible oil etc.

But here we have Diesel and Petrol taxed similar to liqueur and tobacco and a token return of this loot as subsidy

NO government is willing to do this because they are looting 25-30 Rs in tax and giving back 8-10 rs as subsidy.
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Old 24th January 2011, 22:51   #177
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Default Re: Should SUV owners pay market price for Diesel?

Subsidy on Diesel exists in many countries. Ireland for example. Agricultural use Diesel is subsidized and coloured with a red dye.

Diesel for SUVs and Cars is more expensive than Gasolene. There are inspectors on the highway who fine a motorist if red dyed diesel is discovered in the tank.
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Old 24th January 2011, 23:00   #178
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Subsidy on Diesel exists in many countries. Ireland for example. Agricultural use Diesel is subsidized and coloured with a red dye.

Diesel for SUVs and Cars is more expensive than Gasolene. There are inspectors on the highway who fine a motorist if red dyed diesel is discovered in the tank.
Well I have no problem if Government wants to subsidise but fact is that it earns more from Diesel rather then it spends on the subsidy.

As the base price of petroleum is increasing does the tax

Last edited by amitk26 : 24th January 2011 at 23:02.
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Old 25th January 2011, 05:36   #179
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Default Re: Should SUV owners pay market price for Diesel?

correct. this is true of England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland - in short the entire UK. it is a criminal offence to be found using red dyed diesel in a private car.

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Subsidy on Diesel exists in many countries. Ireland for example. Agricultural use Diesel is subsidized and coloured with a red dye.

Diesel for SUVs and Cars is more expensive than Gasolene. There are inspectors on the highway who fine a motorist if red dyed diesel is discovered in the tank.
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Old 25th January 2011, 07:00   #180
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Default Re: Should SUV owners pay market price for Diesel?

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Guys, I remember that for the subsidized Kerosene there was some blue color additive added to it to keep it away from black market. So, why not something in that line?
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Originally Posted by desertfox View Post
Subsidy on Diesel exists in many countries. Ireland for example. Agricultural use Diesel is subsidized and coloured with a red dye.

Diesel for SUVs and Cars is more expensive than Gasolene. There are inspectors on the highway who fine a motorist if red dyed diesel is discovered in the tank.
So, its already available. That should be a viable solution without much problems. Ofcourse, this becomes new entry for "gaining" money for those police
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