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View Poll Results: Should SUV owners pay market price for diesel?
Yes 235 64.56%
No 110 30.22%
I am not sure 19 5.22%
Voters: 364. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 30th November 2010, 23:31   #46
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Originally Posted by AWD View Post
Now this is turning into a Political discussion, I don't know whether you read a thread created by me some days back, the title of which read "Death penalty for corruption". The thread was moved another Mod, since then I have no clue.
Criticizing government isn't political, we do that here all the time. You thread was removed because it was too sensationalist.

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I would again suggest the Govt. to make some stringent laws against corruption & see them enforced but we cannot let corruption stop us on the path of development.
Oh, there are stringent laws already against corruption, only they are not being enforced.

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Originally Posted by AWD View Post
Just think of it, subsidy for the rich/moneyed class on Diesel is stupid & not the other way around.
Subsidy is for the trucks and other transport vehicles. Personal vehicles (rich or poor) running on diesel don't consume anywhere close to the fuel used by Trucks and Buses.

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We can only move forward with new laws & regulations which benifit public. Just because there's corruption doesn't mean we cannot have any laws!
What we need is intelligent solutions that can cut the middlemen. If you make a law that needs to be implemented at the grass root level by thousands of government employees, they will turn that into a money making scheme.

Let's consider our traffic accountants or documents checkers in the city roads. They generally wear white shirt and khaki pants. Their original mandate was to control the traffic, enforce traffic rules, catch traffic violators, investigate accidents, etc. But what are really doing every day? Every traffic SI finds a junction every day and stops passing by vehicles randomly and checks the documents. Why is this, why did this document checking clerical job become more important than enforcing traffic rules? Because that is where the money is... in fines and bribes.

Similarly, you take any government department that deals directly with the citizen and has certain powers over the citizens. They end up focusing only on the money generating aspects of their job.

You want to ration diesel, I'll bet lot of SUV owners will manage to get that diesel ration card.
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Old 30th November 2010, 23:46   #47
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We can go on venting out our frustrations on 100s of different schemes run by the govt to get votes. Right from the issue of subsidies to the issue of reservations etc. But this is TBHP so lets stick to the discussion topic of this thread.
In my opinion Mr Jairam Ramesh is right in saying that subsidized Diesel should not be used by Private/Fleet operators. Its meant for the poor and not for the rich.

And yes by the word RICH I mean every car owner. If you have the money to own a car you should also have the money to bear its running costs. Thats one of the main reasons why many people in USA/UK etc do not prefer to use there cars all the time.

Secondly If such a rule comes into existence then it should cover each and every vehicle right from a Nano to a Bugatti wherever applicable. I guess even the minister meant every vehicle but could not voice it properly.

I also want to request the mods to change the poll from just the SUVs to all cars running on diesel. Or just add another option on those lines. It will help us in judging the pulse of the people on this issue in a more broader way.

Regards,
Mohit

Last edited by drmohitg : 30th November 2010 at 23:49.
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Old 1st December 2010, 00:01   #48
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Why restrict to SUVs? I think the topic is "should premium car owners pay market price for diesel"? I voted yes assuming that is the idea.
Diesel subsidy is of course not for premium cars. period.
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Old 1st December 2010, 00:03   #49
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Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
You want to ration diesel, I'll bet lot of SUV owners will manage to get that diesel ration card.
Don't think so. How many people actually wait in the serpentine queues for sugar and kerosene to be available in the fair price shops to get ration? If it is a matter of hunger for the farmer, he would stand in those lines to get the fuel. Using him (farmer) as a reason to subside the fuel used by large for profit transport companies, railways and privately owned SUVs/cars make no economic sense.

I agree with you that selective taxation/selective subsidy (within a category like fuels) would not work. If this is a situation that cannot be fixed, there should be equal %age subsidy for all other fuels. Agree that we do not need more unnecessary govt. regulation, but we can also go further to remove regulations that make no economic sense.

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Old 1st December 2010, 00:10   #50
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We can crib all our life about corruption at grassroots levels and what not, fact of the matter is everyone (well, mostly) is out there short circuiting the system. It will be nice to remember that these are people amongst us and more often than not, we play a part in encouraging corruption.

Another nice thing to do for the good of this thread would be to stop lamenting over corruption and thus turn this into another politician bashing opportunity.

Can we have some brainstorming over how to achieve this in a practical sense, over a short/med/long term, given that an overwhelming majority agrees with the concept of charging actual prices of fuel for private usage.

Dumbo question maybe, but is there a way where engines (new or existing) can be tuned or any device can be factory installed which can sense a particular property of fuel before the fuel reaches the engine? If yes, the fuel distribution channel can be modified for separate grades of fuel delivery.

Last edited by sanjayc : 1st December 2010 at 00:13.
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Old 1st December 2010, 00:27   #51
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Originally Posted by sanjayc View Post
Dumbo question maybe, but is there a way where engines (new or existing) can be tuned or any device can be factory installed which can sense a particular property of fuel before the fuel reaches the engine? If yes, the fuel distribution channel can be modified for separate grades of fuel delivery.
You should read this, engines are built for a fuel type.
Howstuffworks "Car Engine Types Channel"
Are you thinking of converting petrol to diesel in the car? From my chemistry lessons longtime ago, (petroleum based) diesel and petrol are refined from crude oil, they have different combustion temperatures.
HowStuffWorks "What's the difference between gasoline, kerosene, diesel, etc?"
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Old 1st December 2010, 00:40   #52
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You should read this, engines are built for a fuel type.
Howstuffworks "Car Engine Types Channel"
Are you thinking of converting petrol to diesel in the car? From my chemistry lessons longtime ago, (petroleum based) diesel and petrol are refined from crude oil, they have different combustion temperatures.
HowStuffWorks "What's the difference between gasoline, kerosene, diesel, etc?"
Nope Sir, I am thinking of possibility of adding a additive which does not alter the characteristic of the fuel (like those blue color additives mixed in kerosene as posted earlier by someone), and yet be sensed by a sensor which can control the functioning of the engine. Idea, if it can be said so, is to take into account millions of existing engines which cannot be wished away..so a practical solution needs to be arrived at where installing a small device can keep the existing vehicle running.

In case a device like this is possible at all, controlling the installation is relatively easy, since it can be enforced at mfr/a.s.s level. The demarcation for private use or public use vehicle can be at RTO level based on which the device would have to be installed by the a.s.s

I would be surprised if such a device cannot be created.
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Old 1st December 2010, 00:58   #53
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Here is another exm that gives how the Subsidizing policy is failing in India.
As per my knowledge the Tractor are supposed to be used for on the Agriculture purpose and farmer gets benefit out of that. But if we see ideally the Tractor is used more commercially every where. Making a water tanker, carrying language in Airport and so many. Why not GOVT is not catching them ? They are plying in front of every one.

I believe that 70-80% of diesel are used for commercial purpose rather than farming/agriculture purpose. May be GOVT can think a bit differently like, Stop giving the subsidy to the Diesel and add more subsidy to fertilizer and seeds A Diesel car owner obviously not buy those.

Last edited by arin_12 : 1st December 2010 at 00:59.
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Old 1st December 2010, 01:30   #54
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Wouldn't that be unfairly advantageous to a farmer who also happens to own an SUV? This is rubbish. I hardly drive and hence my cars have and will always be petrol. However, why is the Govt. subsidizing diesel in the first place? If I earn enough to buy an SUV then I am paying a very high amount of taxes which helps the government subsidize the diesel in the first place. My taxes are meant to provide me better roads which the govt. doesn't. My taxes are meant to provide me comfortable public transport in urban areas which the govt. doesn't. Now the govt. has a problem with me buying fuel at a price which is available to my fellow citizen who doesn't pay taxes and gets free electricity? I might as well drive my SUV to one of those Naxal districts and join the Maoists.
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Old 1st December 2010, 01:35   #55
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Totally agree that cars (of any size) shouldn't be using subsidized fuel. From the time diesel cars became kind of common in india (about a decade back), this issue has always struck me as rather important but somehow no one seemed to be concerned about it.

I believe differential pricing though difficult can be implemented. We already have cars/autos running on CNG/LPG. There is huge difference in pricing between lpg for home use and commercial uses and i know many who manage to use home lpg for autos and omnis. So just because a percentage of people misuse it doesn't mean that it shouldn't be implemented.

Practically speaking it is the indicas/sumos drivers who are likely to buy in black or other sources. I really cant picture many Cruze/Laura owners going into a black diesel shop for fuel or carrying cans instead of going to regular petrol bunk
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Old 1st December 2010, 01:37   #56
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Originally Posted by sanjayc View Post
Nope Sir, I am thinking of possibility of adding a additive which does not alter the characteristic of the fuel (like those blue color additives mixed in kerosene as posted earlier by someone), and yet be sensed by a sensor which can control the functioning of the engine. Idea, if it can be said so, is to take into account millions of existing engines which cannot be wished away..so a practical solution needs to be arrived at where installing a small device can keep the existing vehicle running.

In case a device like this is possible at all, controlling the installation is relatively easy, since it can be enforced at mfr/a.s.s level. The demarcation for private use or public use vehicle can be at RTO level based on which the device would have to be installed by the a.s.s

I would be surprised if such a device cannot be created.
Thanks for the clarification.
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Old 1st December 2010, 02:40   #57
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Subsidized diesel was meant only for the agricultural sector but is used by all. Come to think of it does the farming sector with its tax free income actually deserve this subsidy. BTW the share of total annual diesel consumption by the agricultural sector is only 8%, so again is the subsidy really required when a majority of it is being used for purposes other than what it was originally intended for.
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Old 1st December 2010, 08:59   #58
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You would be surprised... the farmers make peanuts in spite of all these incentives and their hard labor. The middle men are the ones who make money and drive those fancy SUV's.

IMHO, the subsidy on everything should go and the vehicle road tax of should be based on their carbon foot print and weight and not on the ex-showroom price.

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Subsidized diesel was meant only for the agricultural sector but is used by all. Come to think of it does the farming sector with its tax free income actually deserve this subsidy. BTW the share of total annual diesel consumption by the agricultural sector is only 8%, so again is the subsidy really required when a majority of it is being used for purposes other than what it was originally intended for.
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Old 1st December 2010, 09:51   #59
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I am ready to pay market price for diesel.

My theory is that the end consumer will not be affected by diesel pricing. Today the car manufacturers are benefiting from the low cost of diesel and not the consumer. This is how it works:
- diesel cars are priced unusually high as consumers are ready to pay higher price for it upfront which they intend to recover by the lower running costs.
- when diesel price is deregulated more consumers will move to petrol cars in the short run. This will result in car companies reducing the prices of diesel cars and bringing it closer to its realistic price.
- in long run consumers will shell out the same amount of money overall (initial car cost + running costs) and other factors like driveability and mileage will prevail over whether you buy petrol or diesel. Just look at european markets to see what is the result.
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Old 1st December 2010, 10:31   #60
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Originally Posted by HappyGoLucky View Post
I am ready to pay market price for diesel.

My theory is that the end consumer will not be affected by diesel pricing. Today the car manufacturers are benefiting from the low cost of diesel and not the consumer. This is how it works:
- diesel cars are priced unusually high as consumers are ready to pay higher price for it upfront which they intend to recover by the lower running costs.
- when diesel price is deregulated more consumers will move to petrol cars in the short run. This will result in car companies reducing the prices of diesel cars and bringing it closer to its realistic price.
- in long run consumers will shell out the same amount of money overall (initial car cost + running costs) and other factors like driveability and mileage will prevail over whether you buy petrol or diesel. Just look at european markets to see what is the result.
This theory is not totally true. Diesel cars are priced high because the cost to manufacture them is high. Diesel engines and fuel injection systems are expensive to Manufacture. They are also more rugged and last longer than petrol engines. So the advantage of deisel engine ourweigh petrol in not just pricing of Diesel and petrol or the milelage a car gives but also the durability of the engine. Diesel engines are at least twice as much durable as their petrol counterparts.
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