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Old 20th December 2010, 13:54   #31
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Default Re: Are more people preferring 4x2s these days?

A lot more 4x2 SUV owners may buy 4x4 (its a matter of shelling out at max a lakh extra in majority of vehicles), BUT...[ Dont flame me this is the junta 4x2 impressions that I hv been hearing]

- The current OTR form in India is viewed as an esoteric back breaking groupie thing which is uncomfortable for families and not worth it as it is likely to scrape and break the vehicles. Ignore the MGE, but most of OTRs is fine for Jeeps/Gypies driven by alpha-males but not for longer wheelbase 4x4 with kids. Too much coordination for knowledge and entry into such clubs and then mod-ing your vehicles with snorkels etc etc. There is a middle path down hardcore and softcore where modern 10-20 lakh 4x4 excel e.g. TSK1979's travelogues but they arent publicized enough.

- Support infrastructure and convenience for taking vehicles down the beaten path does not exist - a lot of families would love to have an offroad guide (e.g. UAE offroad guide etc etc) which can allow them to go on w/o a all knowing local hero on well published trails to place not accessible otherwise. Something/activity should be there at the end of it

- Active discouragement from Dealers when they even refuse to acknowledge existence of 4x4 models and work tirelessly to convert an potential 4x4 buyer to 4x2 sale.

- artificial constraints like the ones Shankar had written - only available with this variant and not that, this colour and not that colour etc. throws off a lot of buyers

- Lifestyle change happens slowly - as we move on from using vehicles from necessity to enjoyment, things will change surely but slowly. The absolute softies will buy SUV for safety, space, comfort, style, brand and gizzmos and will stick with crossovers or soft roaders and 4x2 . A 4x4 option even if available in such SUVs will rarely be used - as No one wants to risk breaking a 35+ lakh vehicle even when you are convinced of its offroading capabilities (LR, Prado, TLC, Merc, Audi). If they were really priced at what they sell in other countries - different matter all together.


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Old 20th December 2010, 14:33   #32
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Default Re: Are more people preferring 4x2s these days?

very good post adzegeek
encapsulates the reality brilliantly.

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Originally Posted by adzegeek View Post
A lot more 4x2 SUV owners may buy 4x4 (its a matter of shelling out at max a lakh extra in majority of vehicles), BUT...[ Dont flame me this is the junta 4x2 impressions that I hv been hearing]

- The current OTR form in India is viewed as an esoteric back breaking groupie thing which is uncomfortable for families and not worth it as it is likely to scrape and break the vehicles. Ignore the MGE, . A 4x4 option even if available in such SUVs will rarely be used - as No one wants to risk breaking a 35+ lakh vehicle even when you are convinced of its offroading capabilities (LR, Prado, TLC, Merc, Audi). If they were really priced at what they sell in other countries - different matter all together.


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Old 20th December 2010, 15:05   #33
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Default Re: Are more people preferring 4x2s these days?

Think of it this way : The 1 lakh rupees saved can buy you 2 - 3 years of diesel! Cost, cost and more cost is the only reason behind 4x2 sales. Of course, with some vehicles (Mahindra, for instance), the 4x2s are equipped with a more comfortable IFS front suspension that improves on-road comfort & handling.

I can also tell you that 4x2 and 4x4 make no difference when it's time for resale. It's tough to find someone who is actually looking for a 4x4 SUV in the used market.

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Originally Posted by Parm View Post
where as people buying fortuner are forced to buy 4x4.
There's a reason for that. The price differential between the parts of a 4x4 over a 4x2 is Rs. 7,500 - 30,000 (depending on the vehicle). Most manufacturers seem to get away with a premium of a lakh on their 4x4 variants. Think of the profit margins!
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Old 20th December 2010, 15:06   #34
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Default Re: Are more people preferring 4x2s these days?

This thread is suspiciously similar to the SUV vs Sedan debate

I didn't buy my new gypsy for its 4x4 as much as its high ground clearance and workhorse pedigree - knowing I wont have to run to to the Garage after a trip in inhospitable terrain, and not having to turn around due to a 25km bad patch. I expect to use 4x4 only 10% of the time or even less actually say easily less than 50km for every 5000 kms of running - that too only on my future planned remote trips, never in city driving. But yes knowing it has 4x4 capabilities added to its appeal or confidence factor. Atleast when I plan a trip in my drawing room, it will be with a "I bloody well make it from point A to point B considering its a Gypsy I drive ..." rather than sit there filled with dread and trepidation about what might happen to my namby pamby sedan and wondering if I am doing the right thing in planning a route or trip.

That lack of anxiety factor by itself was worth everything to me in making my purchase decision.

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Last edited by Ragul : 20th December 2010 at 15:09.
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Old 20th December 2010, 15:51   #35
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Default Re: Are more people preferring 4x2s these days?

good one. I second what you say. An SUV either 2WD or 4WD gives one a certain amount of confidence to just get in and go - especially given the road conditions overall in India, that we need to navigate in our daily lives as well as on our holidays!

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Originally Posted by Ragul View Post
I didn't buy my new gypsy for its 4x4 as much as its high ground clearance and workhorse pedigree ..." rather than sit there filled with dread and trepidation about what might happen to my namby pamby sedan and wondering if I am doing the right thing in planning a route or trip.

That lack of anxiety factor by itself was worth everything to me in making my purchase decision.

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Old 20th December 2010, 15:56   #36
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Default Re: Are more people preferring 4x2s these days?

thats an interesting post -

I would greatly appreciate latest info on the suspension used in the new gen 4x4 VLX Scorpio with Airbags and ABS. I dont think these use the traditional leaf springs any more either in front or at the back.

at the time of re-sale one may get a slight premium since the initial cost of the vehicle was so much higher. I actually am one of those looking for a 4WD in the second hand market but am dead scared because I dont know what the previous owner has done with the 4WD system during his period of usage. Also for the most part these SUVs are not owner driven but driver/chauffeur driven and I positively HATE the way these drivers abuse their bosses vehicles when they arent looking. That alone turns me off totally from the used car market for 4WD's.

It is ridiculous for the manufacturers to charge such exorbitant premia for the 4WD versions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Of course, with some vehicles (Mahindra, for instance), the 4x2s are equipped with a more comfortable IFS front suspension that improves on-road comfort & handling.

I can also tell you that 4x2 and 4x4 make no difference when it's time for resale. It's tough to find someone who is actually looking for a 4x4 SUV in the used market.

There's a reason for that. The price differential between the parts of a 4x4 over a 4x2 is Rs. 7,500 - 30,000 (depending on the vehicle). Most manufacturers seem to get away with a premium of a lakh on their 4x4 variants. Think of the profit margins!
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Old 20th December 2010, 16:50   #37
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Default Re: Are more people preferring 4x2s these days?

GTO
Is there any reliable data available on actual 4WD sales in India. Did quick check on Nov 2010 first post on sales numbers

$$$$ < 100 per month (TLC, XC90, Cayenne, Prado, GL) - nearly all with AWD/4WD with exception of Audi I guess
$$$ ~ 1200-1500 (Fortuner +, Pajerio, Outlander category) - sizeable 4wd/awd
$$ ~ 550 (Aria, CRV, Endeavour, Yeti) - 50% AWD
$ ~ 10,000+ (safari, Innova, Scorpio, Xylo) < 1% will be 4WD
Rs ~ 7500 (Bolero, Sumo) - 0 4WD
Cheap ~ 195 (Gypsies) - mostly 4 wd?

Unfortunately if manufacturers constraint the sales by large profit margins on top trims only for safari/xylo/endeavour and not offer credible options for sumo/bolero - the numbers will never stack up.
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Old 20th December 2010, 17:58   #38
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Default Re: Are more people preferring 4x2s these days?

If I think of the topic from my own perspective as a potential SUV buyer or more rightly potential SUV seeker, few things strike me like

1. PUBLIC worships hull more. For a large mass of buyers various variants their features etc are grossly unknown in depth and they rely more on showroom EXPERTs. What is under the hood or body is of little interest. Had I not been a reader here on Team-BHP, I too would have been part of the PUBLIC.

2. Not everyone is buying SUV because he has money. Rather many are stretching budgets somehow just because they somehow wanna own an SUV.

3. For above point who ever has DARED buying SUV would obviously not dare more to test endurance of his vehicle by serious off-roading. He is more happy keeping her shining prefereably under shadow preserving her newish look for as many years as possible. After all when it is time to sell the PUBLIC will again guage the condition by Shine and scratches more.

4. As rightly said earlier by others and coupled to above, price savings are really worth considering.

5. Majority of SUVs sold are either Scorpios or Safaris. Are these really really capable of off-roading? Though I don't have any experience of off-roading or above two vehicles capacity, going by word of mouth these are apperently not Gypsies. Hence why inWASTE in a feature which is not a full feature itself. Something like buying FUll HD 22 inch LCD tv.

6. Like human beings Indian cars too are adaptive and exhibit learning manners.
Bad roads being our prized national asset preserved over generations, even small hatchbacks have learnt to ride on near off-road non-roads. So no wonder 4X2s too have. Again why inWASTE when our vehicles are sort of self learning.
I use my old estilo often to go to my in-laws home. The only non-road available is maintained just because so many vehicles are using it that trees can't grow there. Instead of few wheels experiencing potholes, the entire car sometimes is in pothole and still she is going great u see.



In a nut shell I think it is 4x2 what is VFM for an average SUV seeking public. Hence it reflects in the sales.

SUV=4x4 equation is not valid in India as out roads are not intermittently slippery as in Europe/Northern US' snow or sandy as in Gulf.
Rgds.
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Old 20th December 2010, 18:00   #39
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Default Re: Are more people preferring 4x2s these days?

If I think of the topic from my own perspective as a potential SUV buyer or more rightly potential SUV seeker, few things strike me like

1. PUBLIC worships hull more. For a large mass of buyers various variants their features etc are grossly unknown in depth and they rely more on showroom EXPERTs. What is under the hood or body is of little interest. Had I not been a reader here on Team-BHP, I too would have been part of the PUBLIC.

2. Not everyone is buying SUV because he has money. Rather many are stretching budgets somehow just because they somehow wanna own an SUV.

3. For above point who ever has DARED buying SUV would obviously not dare more to test endurance of his vehicle by serious off-roading. He is more happy keeping her shining prefereably under shadow preserving her newish look for as many years as possible. After all when it is time to sell the PUBLIC will again guage the condition by Shine and scratches more.

4. As rightly said earlier by others and coupled to above, price savings are really worth considering.

5. Majority of SUVs sold are either Scorpios or Safaris. Are these really really capable of off-roading? Though I don't have any experience of off-roading or above two vehicles capacity, going by word of mouth these are apperently not Gypsies. Hence why inWASTE in a feature which is not a full feature itself. Something like buying FUll HD 22 inch LCD tv.

6. Like human beings Indian cars too are adaptive and exhibit learning manners.
Bad roads being our prized national asset preserved over generations, even small hatchbacks have learnt to ride on near off-road non-roads. So no wonder 4X2s too have. Again why inWASTE when our vehicles are sort of self learning.
I use my old estilo often to go to my in-laws home. The only non-road available is maintained just because so many vehicles are using it that trees can't grow there. Instead of few wheels experiencing potholes, the entire car sometimes is in pothole and still she is going great u see.



In a nut shell I think it is 4x2 what is VFM for an average SUV seeking public. Hence it reflects in the sales.

SUV=4x4 equation is not valid in India as out roads are not intermittently slippery as in Europe/Northern US' snow or sandy as in Gulf.

Rgds.
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Old 22nd December 2010, 17:59   #40
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Default Re: Are more people preferring 4x2s these days?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Of course, with some vehicles (Mahindra, for instance), the 4x2s are equipped with a more comfortable IFS front suspension that improves on-road comfort & handling.
On a different thread http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/4x4-te...afari-4x4.html (Handling with Torsion Bar Set up in Scorpio/Safari 4x4) Senior BHPians collectively agree that 4x4 Scorpio handles better than 2wd. Is it something different that you mean here with IFS? For the interest of newbies and nonexperienced 4x4 owners, could you please shed some more light?
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