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Old 22nd December 2005, 14:56   #1
rdp
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Thumbs down Innova (diesel) problem

Hi everyone. I am pleasantly surprised to see such an active forum on the auto scene in India. My post is regarding the G2 (diesel) Innova that I bought in Sep 05. To begin with I was really happy with my choice. There was a silky smoothness about the diesel engine and the car seemed like a big beast under your control. After about 2 months, towards the end of October, I started noticing a degradation in performance. The smoothness seemed to have vanished and the vehicle started feeling like the typical diesel that we are used to. To make matters worse I noticed a drop in power while accelerating and on occasions I was sure that the vehicle actually missed. I have been very careful with my choice of pumps while topping up and had been always using Turbojet from HP as my fuel. When I took the car in for a checkup at the dealer, I was told that there is nothing wrong with it and that adulterated diesel must be the culprit. Just to be sure I switched over to a different pump and got Hi-Speed diesel filled for the first time. There was some little improvement in the drive quality but far from what I had experienced in the early days. I just reconciled to the fact that the pleasure rush that I had experienced in the first two months was due to the car being brand new and what I have now is what I have to live with. Anyways, while driving on the Noida expressway one day, I suddenly noticed a big cloud of black smoke in my rear view mirror. I was quite zapped and when I got down to check things I realised that my back bumper and number plate were coated in black soot. I suddenly recalled that my brother-in-law who had been following my car once, had remarked that it was belching out black smoke but at that point of time it did not mean much to me. I immediately took the car to the dealer and here the story starts to become interesting. I was initially told by the dealer that they have received complaints of excessive black smoke from about 13-14 other Innovas and that Toyota is aware of the problem and that they are working on a solution. Apparently, since I was driving at a high speed on the expressway, the increased acceleration had ejected the accumulated carbon deposit from my exhaust and hence the sudden cloud of black smoke. When I was persistent, the guy dealing with me took my car to their yard and accelerated it hard to see the problem for himself. The smoke that came out seemed enough to paint their entire boundary black. I was just horrified, to say the least. I was then directed to their service manager who told me that this problem was indeed widespread and that Toyota is planning to change some parts in the cars that they have already sold. I was also told the following precautions need to be taken:

1. To use "normal" diesel without any additives which rules out all of the premium diesels like Turbojet, etc. Supposedly CRDi engines don't appreciate these premium diesels. I was even told that Hyundai is changing the entire CRDi system in their Ascents because of similar problems being faced by them.

2. To rev my car hard 10 times once a week so that all accumulated carbon deposits get released from my exhaust pipe.

Having said that they took my car into their workshop and supposedly cleaned the accumulated carbon deposit. I was once again told to be patient and wait for Toyota to make up their minds about what they need to do to solve the problem. Most probably my car will be recalled for some change in parts.

The first thing that I did was drive to one of the "company owned" Indian Oil pumps, close by, and get "normal" diesel filled in my car. To be honest, in a day or two, I did experience an improvement in the drive quality - the zing in my car was back somewhat. It was again smooth and there were no power drops while accelerating. Was this because of the fact that the carbon that had been choking my engine had been cleaned by the dealer or was it because of the "normal" diesel coursing through the veins of my fussy CRDi engine - I couldn't figure out. Meantime, I shot of a mail to Toyota, detailing my situation for which I am yet to receive any reply. What I did receive was a call from Toyota Bangalore and the sweet lady on the other end acknowledged that a problem does exist and that Toyota would be changing some parts by January end to fix it. Meantime I need to use "normal" diesel and that will control the problem somewhat. It was also emphasised that this was an emission problem only and that it does not affect the engine life or performance in any way. I did weakly try to tell her that I had experienced a severe drop in my drive quality in this period but somehow could not get my point across very well. Well, when I organised my thoughts after the phone call, I reasoned that my car was driving reasonably OK and maybe I can turn a blind eye towards the black smoke for some time. I would have been happy with the situation but in a few days since this episode, my car's performance has again taken a nose dive. Is it because of the carbon that has again started accumulating inside? - I can't be sure. In dismay, I searched the net for similar experiences that other people may have had and I stumbled upon this thread in one of the car forums in Philippines.

http://tsikot.yehey.com/forums/showt...ghlight=innova

There are some 150 posts in this thread titled "Toyota D4D engine woes" which contain horror stories of diesel Innovas stalling. It seems that the problem there stems from a faulty fuel pump and that Toyota is already replacing the same in several vehicles there. It also seems that Toyota has not released the diesel version of Innova in some countries because of concerns regarding its reliability.

My concerns are as follows:

- Is there more to the problem then meets the eye? Are we talking of an emission problem only or is there something more serious like in Philippines. Since Toyota's IMV project of which Innova is a part, is about using the same parts in vehicles manufactured under it all over the world, to cut down costs, do we also have the same faulty fuel pump in our cars which is starting to act up now by causing black smoke and will one day cause more serious problems?

- If it is indeed an emission problem only, how do we explain the performance drop I have been experiencing? I would rule out fuel quality in my case, since like I pointed out earlier, I have been getting fuel filled from reliable pumps only. Excessive black smoke means excessive carbon deposit and doesn’t carbon deposit clog the fuel injectors, the fuel and air filters, resulting in wear-tear and reduced performance?

- Do CRDi engines actually don't appreciate premium additive laden diesels? I am quite reluctant to use "cheaper" diesel in my brand new vehicle and loose out on the advantages offered by the premium diesels now available. As a matter of fact, after reading the qualities of Hi-Speed diesel on BP’s website, it seems exactly like what the doctor would have prescribed. It reduces carbon deposit, results in better fuel combustion, results in better pickup…..

- Has Hyundai actually changed the CRDi system on their Ascent model to counter similar problems?

I apologise for the long post but I was wanting to detail the whole situation so that I can get relevant feedback from others, in this regard. I am also hoping that if I am not alone in facing these problems, then ultimately this post will trigger more people to come forward and Toyota will have to act decisively on these issues. I have no complaints with regards to their service and I appreciate the way the dealer acted and the fact that I received a call from someone in Bangalore to reassure me. What pains me is that I paid good money for a premium car from a premium car maker and I am having to undergo this mental agony of not knowing what is wrong with it.

I will now await the feedback of all the good people in this forum.
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Old 22nd December 2005, 16:13   #2
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Welcome to TBHP. We would appreciate if you could read the forum rules and followed them. They are available on the home page.

About your problem... Since it is a completely new vehicle (hardly 3 months or so old) I do not think these black soot problems should occur so early. Diesel vehicles do show this problem but not so early. Then too a well maintained vehicle will not have so much of soot deposit as your car seems to be showing.

Yes, it is true that many new gen cars are recommended for normal fuel rather than those costlier ones. I am not very sure about their veracity though. What I can say is that there are lot many Innovas moving around the city and many of them actually drink only the premium fuel. However I am yet to see one that belches out so much soot. Now it is possible that a particular lot of vehicles came out with some faulty components and Toyota is aware of it. Keep talking to the dealer and keep a tab on things. Toyota may replace the faulty parts after a recall. Normally they advertise such things in a national daily mentioning the month of manufacture or the chassis no. range. However many a times they also send one to one mails.

I do not think that just because some Innovas in Philippines had faulty pumps the ones sold here will also have the same problem. The parts are sourced regionally. So unless the design itself is faulty it will be too much of a coincidence for such an occurence to happen.

Lastly, be very sure about the pump from where you buy diesel. Normally a big pump with multiple dispensers which does a lot of business could be reliable. Find one such and stick to it. As a thumb rule avoid pumps on the outskirts and highways. BP and IOC pumps are the best.

Last edited by Zappo : 22nd December 2005 at 16:14.
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Old 22nd December 2005, 16:56   #3
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1.I dont remember toyota releasing a different D4D engine for India, so sadly the woes could be the same
2.Crdi engines are sensitive to kerosene/naptha etc., laden diesel, nee adultrated diesel, everything else is not a problem.
3.They are trying to make it more resistant to adulterated diesel. Infact not just crdi, all diesels. Sometimes diesel fuel is so heavily laden with foreign particles that it can actually damage the fuel pump. On clean diesel your fuel pump will go without overhaul for 150000kms+ but with the current state of pumps in India, you will need an overhaul for your fuel pump every 60-80000kms.
4. toyota will issue a recall in foreign countries, but in India I am not too sure. but since they have promised that by Jan end they will fix things, this should work. Meanwhile fill in your regular diesel without additives. you can try using system D and see if it cures your problem to some extent
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Old 22nd December 2005, 17:03   #4
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When I bought my car, SC clearly told to use normal fuel and not to use premium fuels with additives.

As your car is only 3 months old, there should not be any black exhaust/performance problem. Surely it is a product defect.

As Zappo suggested try another pump to check whether it makes any difference.
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Old 22nd December 2005, 17:30   #5
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Default same problem!

i had booked innova g3 diesel on first day of its launch but managed to get the delivery only after 2 months from uutam toyota, ghaziabad. it is a silver colour and the new car engine was very very smooth with very less diesel clatter. from last two months i realized that the engine has turned up very noisy and was emiting brown soot on flooring the accelerator. the soot could easily be seen in rear view mirror while overtaking. just a few days back my friend bought a new g2 diesel and i found that it was miles ahead in terms of noise and refinement level. i reported this problem to the service station on 10,000 kms service but was told that everything is fine and diesel car have do make these level of clatter. but after reading on t-bhp about the same problem from other owners i can easily relate my problem. i hope toyota can solve this problem as soon as possible.
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Old 22nd December 2005, 17:53   #6
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my friend is buying innova diesel next month, i will tell him about this problem.
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Old 22nd December 2005, 20:25   #7
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A warm welcome to you at Team-bhp. We hope that you will share all the good and bad times with us.


Quote:
I immediately took the car to the dealer and here the story starts to become interesting. I was initially told by the dealer that they have received complaints of excessive black smoke from about 13-14 other Innovas and that Toyota is aware of the problem and that they are working on a solution
.



Have you had your complaint put down in writing or atleast in their Job Card ? Have all your visit to the W/S recorded.
Be very specific about your problems and insist that they put it down the way way you want it on the Job Card.. A friend of mine had a problem with his car's Head Light bulbs which would keep blowing up frequently. Every time he complained about it, the guys at Workshop Wrote " Electrical Check Up " . Bulb problems could be a part of electrical system but being specific gives more weightage to the problem.



Quote:
Meantime, I shot of a mail to Toyota, detailing my situation for which I am yet to receive any reply. What I did receive was a call from Toyota Bangalore and the sweet lady on the other end acknowledged that a problem does exist and that Toyota would be changing some parts by January end to fix it. .

It appears that you have sent them an E-mail. I sugest that you also Fax them a copy of the letter. Sending a hard copy by courier and Registered post will also help. By doing this you will be sending clear signals to the manufacturer that you problem needs to be addressed ASAP

I am sure your problem would solved soon.

varun

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Old 23rd December 2005, 08:04   #8
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Hi,

My G2 was bought in Sep and has done 5K kms now ( yesterday I took it to Nandi Toyata for 5K checkup). I have not noticed any problems so far ...Engine remains as peppy as it used to be . Good acceleration even on 5th gear and it touches 100+ Kms very quickly.

A couple of observations:

My friend who brought a G2 at the same time as me was complaining that his vehicle is not going above 120Kms . I have actually touched 145Km once on Tumkur highway . We are planning to switch the vehicles for a day to find out if there is any change in performance.

Another friend who has a G1 purchased aorund April 05 ( done 14K) came to my house yesterday . When he started the engine I could sense that the noise level has actually gone very high .

Last weekend I travelled 1100Kms ( Bangalore-Cochin-Bangalore) and was really happy with the performance. Did two fillings with normal diesel from Reliance Pump. Interestingly somewhere near Salem I was following another Innova and was surprised to see a lot of black smoke coming from its exhaust when that car was accelerating. Thought that he must be running on bad fuel ..but now I am thinking ...

I am curious to know the outcome of your interaction with Toyota.
Once of the reasons I bought Innova was for the "legendary reliability" that Toyota is known for . I owned an Indica Diesel 99 model for more than 6years which almost made me to switch my career as an Auto mechanic !

If you would like to discuss it further please send me a private message.
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Old 23rd December 2005, 08:25   #9
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hello guys, i took delivery of scorpio crde and its not even a week old. i am feeding her with high speed diesel. yesterday for the first time i took her out on a empty piece of road (east coast road in chennai), since run-in period is not over, i was trying to accelerate smoothly and after reaching a speed of around 60kmph or so i heard a strange noise over and above the music... so i switched off the music system and concentrated on the engine note, i felt the acceleration was not smooth and linear and she was struggling a bit, i tried to decelerate and accelerate twice or thrice, but again i had the same noise... then after sometime it disappeared, today morning i again took her to 80 to 90 kmph, but now the engine note seems to be fine. i spoke to the sales guy last night and he said it could be due to either (a) due to adulterated fuel or (b) block in the pump.. he advised me the keep the engine in idle and rev it slowly to take the rpm to 3k to see any difference in noise, but dint find any... i was told other owners have also faced similar problems and the guy attributed it to air block in the pump because of running it with very little fuel by the dealers.
but after reading thru the posts about problem with crde in innova and also a mention about hyundai crdi.. i am a bit worried.
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Old 23rd December 2005, 09:48   #10
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Whats this i hear about the hyundais? Dont know about other owners, but my accent crdi has run 57000kms without any engine issues whatsoever and it runs on premium diesel all the time.

Regarding the innova, i too noticed quite a few of them giving out black smoke and quite a few dicors too.

Drifter

Last edited by drifter : 23rd December 2005 at 09:49.
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Old 23rd December 2005, 10:32   #11
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Black smoke is not really an issue when it comes during cold starts and hard acceleration, but all the time, its a problem. As for accent crdi issues, you being in bombay have better quality of fuel . Come to small or even medium towns, you will see that most petrol pumps adultrate diesel with naptha/kerosine etc., This is really bad for the fuel pump, and the injectors etc., I use a healthy dose of system D occasionaly to clear the injectors and such as I dont really trust "high speed diesel". Many pumps fill normal diesel and charge for high speed diesel. this way that dont have to adultrate the fuel and still make a fast buck
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Old 23rd December 2005, 11:35   #12
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Default Fuel adulteration is the nemesis

This is a major problem especially on highways. Only need to fill one tank full of adulterated diesel and your engine(common rail) will see stars. I think that is one of the reasons why Honda is not even whispering anything about diesel although they do make decent diesels now. The demand for diesel is high because it is priced artificially lower. World over the price of diesel and petrol is almost the same. The amazing thing is that all the local oil co.s are claiming that diesel sales have stagnated while diesel cars sales as a percentage of total car sales has actually increased. Commercial vehicle sales have also increased. The adulteration racket is mostly run by politicians and their kin or businessmen with links to politicians. Political will is required to sort this problem out. Forget the damage to vehicles which can be repaired, the damage to the environment is irrepairable. For the time being I suggest you use an additive(like System D) or like me, stick to petrol.
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Old 23rd December 2005, 15:50   #13
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Slightly off topic:

Do you guys mean to say that only diesel is adulterated? So, those who are driving petrol vehicles need not worry?

PS:
Isn't it true that as diesel engines use comparatively unrefined fuel, they are supposed to be stronger to adulterate fuel resistance compared to petrol engines?

Last edited by sbasak : 23rd December 2005 at 15:52.
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Old 23rd December 2005, 16:01   #14
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Petrol is also adultrated and many people have had problems with their petrol cars after filling up. there have been cases in which car companies have refused warranty claims due to adulterated fuel.
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Old 23rd December 2005, 16:20   #15
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Petrol is also adulterated but to a much lesser extent. The percentage of petrol vehicles travelling on highways is very small. Also, petrol is more difficult to adulterate. Yes, you would be relatively better off with a petrol vehicle. In the city, adulteration is much much lower than on highways.
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