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Old 10th April 2009, 04:31   #1696
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How do you decipher Xylo sales from the excel sheet?
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Old 10th April 2009, 09:52   #1697
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Originally Posted by RX135 View Post
Oops! Did that pinch?

So what facts are you talking about? Facts are not who said what on a thread. So, I'll give back same advise. Go and check out 0-100, Quarter mile, 100-0 (braking), 20-80/40-100 roll on figures.

BTW, I do hope you have test driven the car
My Take: (A slightly diffent take)

The segment a car falls in is not governed by the 0-100 figures, nor the 100-0 braking nor the roll on figures, nor infact event the price or size taken in isolation

It tends to be a combination of Price combined with Size.

Hence for example the various version of 5 series BMW, the Audi A6 & the E- Class merc are treated to be in the same segment, though they have significantly varying prices when one compares the base price with the top version and also the power varies significantly when one goes across from the lowest powered Disel to the highest powered Petrol.

These same cars also tend to be clubbed with the slightly smaller 3 Series BMW and the Audi A4 & the C- Class Merc & even at times the Passat for the same reason, else they are clubbed with the next higher segment of 7 Series BMW, the Audi A8 & the S- Class Merc. In between the coupe version too get clubbed in.

Yet in general Length is the key parameter that is considered in categorizing a car and to a certain extent possibly the price.

The Linea (priced as per C+ sement) should hence correctly be placed in the D Segment along with the Civics, Corolla Lauras (priced in the D+ segment). The fact that the City is more expensive does not make it a D segmenter nor take away from the Lineas true segment position. (As has been take care of in the Vasudeva Excel sheet that we all observe/ follow.) I myself own a Laura that gets beaten by this kind of a clssification by the Linea & the Civic and I still feet that is the correct approach.

The SX4, Dzire, Fiesta, Verna & the City are a segment lower, even if one or two of them have power to take on cars in the higer segment.) City infact commands a brand and reliability premium dispropotionate to the value it offers. But possibly in India the City's perceived reliablity reputation is rated very important in the buying decision.

So as we have observed that are two lines of thought in the segmentation and I do support the minority view.

As a balancing take the fact does remain that the Linea though cheaper and built well and a car from a higher sement is selling lesser than ones from the lower segment. This can be attributed to the fact that it as a Brand has taken a beating in India in the Last 8 years since the Palio's first version due to service and support. The company has been forced to price the car aggresively to revive the brand true the sheer value it offers. If it succeeds then it should logically lead both the segments in question. Else minority logic will remain in the minority.
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Old 10th April 2009, 12:02   #1698
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Well, the fact is Honda City leads the segment, however much I/we hate to admit it.

The reason i hate to admit is not because it deserves it, but because of the arrogance of Honda in overpricing it to such an extent and not even giving the basic accesories.

If only Toyota has been aggressive in this segment......

PS: No doubt Linea is a good car, but Fiat has a long way to go before instilling confidence in the minds of the Indian buyers to go out and buy it. And yes, they seriously need to plonk some powerful engines.
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Old 10th April 2009, 12:38   #1699
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Well, the fact is Honda City leads the segment, however much I/we hate to admit it.
How does it lead its segment?? when Dzire clearly leads in most of the months since its launch in 2008.

Let the alleged misclassification debate of Linea continue next month, when hopefully it will still report 4-digit numbers. By pricing, why not put Linea in compact (Fabia, i20) segment, and claim that it is a laggard??
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Old 10th April 2009, 13:29   #1700
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Originally Posted by vasudeva View Post
How does it lead its segment?? when Dzire clearly leads in most of the months since its launch in 2008.

Let the alleged misclassification debate of Linea continue next month, when hopefully it will still report 4-digit numbers. By pricing, why not put Linea in compact (Fabia, i20) segment, and claim that it is a laggard??
Dzire is a segment leader in the entry level sedan space where it competes with the Indigo,Ikon,Accent,Logan.

Honda is the segment leader in the upper midsize category comprising ANHC,Linea,SX4,Verna,Fiesta,Aveo.

Thats how it is categorised by the auto mags and I feel thats being fair

Linea can never be considered in the same breadth as a Civic or Altis or Laura.
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Old 10th April 2009, 14:04   #1701
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Thats how it is categorised by the auto mags and I feel thats being fair
The same rags give awards to nearly all cars launched just to get more ad money and more free long-termers. Perhaps i10 ABS leads in ABS segment, BMW leads in `i-cry' segment, Merc leads in the West India businessperson segment, Camry leads in `Punjab politico' segment, and lancer used to lead in `Punju Macho' segment.
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Old 10th April 2009, 14:26   #1702
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I think people are really exaggerating when they say "Linea is underpowered and hence will be a flop".

Only till recently NHC with its silly 77bhp engine was the segment leader.
I don't think aam junta lays too much stress on power. If a product is good VFM, they'll buy it.

Still, given Fiat's reputation, doing 1500/month is a great achievement and shows it's a worthy product. If Linea was a product by maruti/Hyundai ... it would have easily touched 5k/month IMO.
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Old 10th April 2009, 14:41   #1703
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vasudeva View Post
How does it lead its segment?? when Dzire clearly leads in most of the months since its launch in 2008.

Let the alleged misclassification debate of Linea continue next month, when hopefully it will still report 4-digit numbers. By pricing, why not put Linea in compact (Fabia, i20) segment, and claim that it is a laggard??
Agree fully.

Quote:
Originally Posted by joy_swift View Post
Dzire is a segment leader in the entry level sedan space where it competes with the Indigo,Ikon,Accent,Logan.

Honda is the segment leader in the upper midsize category comprising ANHC,Linea,SX4,Verna,Fiesta,Aveo.

Thats how it is categorised by the auto mags and I feel thats being fair

Linea can never be considered in the same breadth as a Civic or Altis or Laura.
Here is a Laura owner (me) (clearly seen by most to be a better car than Civic and Altis) who as driven the Linea who suggests that then both should be in the same category. (need not be at the same price point) but the same category definately. The Linea was closer to the Laura build than the Civic by a big margin and than the Altis by a lesser margin.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vasudeva View Post
The same rags give awards to nearly all cars launched just to get more ad money and more free long-termers. Perhaps i10 ABS leads in ABS segment, BMW leads in `i-cry' segment, Merc leads in the West India businessperson segment, Camry leads in `Punjab politico' segment, and lancer used to lead in `Punju Macho' segment.
Well Said, a company goes ahead and fixes a good price for its car and yet suffers.

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Originally Posted by neotraveller View Post
I think people are really exaggerating when they say "Linea is underpowered and hence will be a flop". Only till recently NHC with its silly 77bhp engine was the segment leader.
I don't think aam junta lays too much stress on power. If a product is good VFM, they'll buy it.

Still, given Fiat's reputation, doing 1500/month is a great achievement and shows it's a worthy product. If Linea was a product by maruti/Hyundai ... it would have easily touched 5k/month IMO.
Agree. If I am add the Octavia with 90 Bhp would be classified a level lower than the city if one goes by the other chain of idealogy.

Maruti with a Linea like car would have done 10K units a month and the rest would have shut shop.
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Old 10th April 2009, 15:05   #1704
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joy_swift View Post
Dzire is a segment leader in the entry level sedan space where it competes with the Indigo,Ikon,Accent,Logan.

Honda is the segment leader in the upper midsize category comprising ANHC,Linea,SX4,Verna,Fiesta,Aveo.

Thats how it is categorised by the auto mags and I feel thats being fair
When the Logan was launched, how many atricles dod you see in the auto mags where it was compared with the entry level sedan segment? It was almost always compared with the likes of the Fiesta and Verna.

That brings me to the question, why the sudden shift in the segmentation?
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Old 10th April 2009, 19:42   #1705
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• The M800 is effectively and truly set for retirement. Unless Maruti wants to slash its prices and take the Nano head on. 2400 cars / month is the lowest ever for the cheapest hatch of India. Surprising for a month with accounting implications like March, though unsurprising when you consider the Nano’s launch timing. The 800 can be sold at a massive discount on the current price, and still make Maruti a tidy profit. Expect corrections on a new base variant.

• Why is Fiat even bothering with the Palio? It’s got to be losing money on everyone of those 170 cars sold, but more than the monetary loss, the Palio is milking the Fiat brand of all its equity. CEASE production and focus on the Linea (+ future products) with IMMEDIATE effect!

• At a 32% increase over last March, Maruti continues to dominate the 3 – 5 lakh hatchback segment. And with good reason. Strangely, Hyundai registered a 13% dip in Y-O-Y sales. Though still no.2 in the compact segment by a mile (front and back), disappointing when you consider the awesome urban cars that the Santro & the i10 are. The Spark must be making GM a lot of money at 3000 cars a month, after all, it is a decade old design (still cheeky and competent though).

• The Fabia has crashed 20% in the Y-O-Y stakes and at 500 odd cars, is pretty much one of the worst selling hatches in India. Bad choice of engines, low FE, big price tag and substandard after-sales are deterrents to the discerning Indian hatchback customer.

• Nearly 14,000 cars sold in March is a respectable number for Tata, yet their Y-O-Y growth is only 4.9% despite a fantastic new product in the Vista. Me thinks Tata taking the safe design / branding route with the Vista has limited its market potential.

• The value-priced Ikon D must play a role in helping Ford maintain a C-segment volume of 2,700 cars a month. @ Vasudeva, can we have more information on the split between the Ikon & the Fiesta please?

• Start preparing obituary notes for the Aveo. Not too many will miss the lacklustre sedan either. Ditto for the Logan, the biggest loser in this segment with a whopping 70% Y-O-Y decline. Always told you, M&M – Renault, you went overboard with the price. Premium EMI for a cost-cut cheap sedan? You had got to be kidding us.

• The new City is helping Honda stay around the 6,000 monthly mark, but only just. Impressive when you consider that the money supplies have only just loosened up, but I doubt the new City will ever match the long-term success of the previous gen. Lets wait and watch. Still, a deserving segment leader due to its all rounded nature.

• The Civic resurges to its best ever performance in 9 months, yet down by a massive 65% Y-O-Y. Even the Altis disappoints (considering its a newer design and far more practical).

• The Octavia & Laura are currently languishing at 50% of their sales in March 2008. The Civic and Altis alone (each), sell more than the Octy + Laura combined! You can tell that buyers have a lot more on their mind than just a diesel advantage.

• The Sonata (Transform) has its best ever month in nearly 2 years, lets see how long the run last (70 Sonatas sold). Its high time that the Camry is built locally (class flunker at 40 cars).

• The BMW 3 series celebrates its best ever month in March 2009 with a 116 cars moved off showroom floors. The C Class, IMO the 30 lakh class leader, has beaten the 3 hollow with 173 cars sold in March!

• Man, the 5 series is on a truly phenomenal run. At 309 cars old, its within a hairs breadth of the half-price Accord (326 cars) and nearly DOUBLE that of the E-Class (159 cars), 8 lakh discounts on the E280 notwithstanding. The Skoda Superb did sell 20 cars more than the Accord, but I’d put it down on the new car effect. Either the diesel will make it the class leader, or Skoda’s substandard service will seal its fate. Wait and watch.

• The new 7 series is awesome right, a sure success? WRONG! The Merc S Class outsold the new 7 series 5:1, despite being a 3 year older design (72 for the S versus 15 for the 7).
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Old 10th April 2009, 23:34   #1706
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Originally Posted by vasudeva View Post
How does it lead its segment?? when Dzire clearly leads in most of the months since its launch in 2008.

Let the alleged misclassification debate of Linea continue next month, when hopefully it will still report 4-digit numbers. By pricing, why not put Linea in compact (Fabia, i20) segment, and claim that it is a laggard??
Quote:
Originally Posted by joy_swift View Post
Dzire is a segment leader in the entry level sedan space where it competes with the Indigo,Ikon,Accent,Logan.

Honda is the segment leader in the upper midsize category comprising ANHC,Linea,SX4,Verna,Fiesta,Aveo.

Linea can never be considered in the same breadth as a Civic or Altis or Laura.
I am not going by the price alone here. I think Dzire competes with the likes of Ikon & Accent, in the entry level sedan space, where as Fiesta, Verna, Linea, SX4 & ANHC are in the C+ segment/ upper midsize.

We can argue endlessly on this, but i for one certainly wouldn't compare ANHC with Dzire. They are in different segment. Dzire is superior in its own right & in the segment where it is positioned. Its SX4 which is pitted against ANHC.
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Old 10th April 2009, 23:37   #1707
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We can argue endlessly on this, but i for one certainly wouldn't compare ANHC with Dzire. They are in different segment. Dzire is superior in its own right & in the segment where it is positioned. Its SX4 which is pitted against ANHC.


I am not sure how a 5.5L sedan can compete with a 9L one?Logically that is
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Old 11th April 2009, 16:32   #1708
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Originally Posted by neotraveller View Post
Only till recently NHC with its silly 77bhp engine was the segment leader.
I don't think aam junta lays too much stress on power. If a product is good VFM, they'll buy it.

Still, given Fiat's reputation, doing 1500/month is a great achievement and shows it's a worthy product. If Linea was a product by maruti/Hyundai ... it would have easily touched 5k/month IMO.
Well said.

What's surprising is that people called the 77bhp NHC a technological marvel but a 86bhp non-Honda is underpowered. People forget that the NHC felt sprightly because it was a light car.

People want to pay M800 prices for a non-Honda but want it to give them Ferrari levels of performance. When it comes to Honda, they are ready to pay Ferrari prices for M800 performance levels! (I am going into my bunker now!)

How do I get i20 and Xylo sales figures from the sheet?
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Old 11th April 2009, 19:54   #1709
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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
The ...
Lovely post Rushab, thoroughly enjoyed it.
Quote:
....
nearly DOUBLE that of the E-Class (159 cars), 8 lakh discounts on the E280 notwithstanding.
OMG! Thats more than 15% discount on Ex-showroom price!!! How much will it be effecting the resale of the E280??
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Old 12th April 2009, 01:47   #1710
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oss View Post
I am not going by the price alone here. I think Dzire competes with the likes of Ikon & Accent, in the entry level sedan space, where as Fiesta, Verna, Linea, SX4 & ANHC are in the C+ segment/ upper midsize.
I agree with this statement.

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Originally Posted by amit View Post
What's surprising is that people called the 77bhp NHC a technological marvel but a 86bhp non-Honda is underpowered. People forget that the NHC felt sprightly because it was a light car.
C'mon man, Team-BHP did NOT call the NHC a tech marvel, however we did call it immensely practical which it was. I don't mean to get anal here, but the NHC did enjoy a better power to weight ratio than the Linea petrol and will, in all certainty, be more fuel efficient as well. The NHC's back seat was far more comfortable than in the Linea, it felt sprightlier in the city and had the kind of reliability that a Fiat product can only dream about. We aren't even going to discuss resale, but we all know how Fiat owners get skimmed in the used bazaar. The diesel Linea may do acceptably well (still no confirmation) but in all probability, the Linea petrol will bomb when it comes to resale. Thus, the NHC - regular or Vtec - would probably work out cheaper to own as well. Honda rightly enjoys far superior brand equity to Fiat, in India or most other markets worldwide. And if power was what you were looking for, the NHC Vtec was an option right?

I love both brands and will call a spade a spade.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kkr2k2 View Post
Lovely post Rushab, thoroughly enjoyed it.

OMG! Thats more than 15% discount on Ex-showroom price!!! How much will it be effecting the resale of the E280??
Big time. It was a first for Merc India to offer such killer discounts on a still-in-production car and will definitely affect the resale of existing E's. Just goes to show the heat they are facing from BMW.
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