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Old 22nd January 2011, 14:37   #46
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Default Re: Why do diesel engine variants get step-motherly treatment from manufacturers?

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Originally Posted by Surviving Brain View Post
Interesting thread. This also brings to my mind another question. What else determines the difference between a Petrol and diesel (corresponding variant) of a car.

e.g. The difference between i20 petrol vs Diesel is > 1 lacs.
Between Swift petrol vs Diesel is ~75k.
Between Dzire petrol vs Diesel is ~85k.
Between Punto petrol and Diesel is just Rs45k.
Punto's case is 'special' since the Petrol EP is 1.4L and hence does not quality for excise duty benefits.

If you compare Punto Petrol 1.2L Active/Dynamic to Punto Diesel, the difference is about 80K. The Punto Petrol 1.2L Emotion to Punto Diesel 1.3L Emotion difference is about 100k, but they are not directly comparable since the 1.2L emotion lacks certain features like ABS.
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Old 22nd January 2011, 15:35   #47
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Default Re: Why do diesel engine variants get step-motherly treatment from manufacturers?

Its' quite likely that some of the premium parts may not survive the constant clatter of a diesel engine, and rather than face customer ire, manufacturers choose to do away with it.
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Old 22nd January 2011, 15:43   #48
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Default Re: Why do diesel engine variants get step-motherly treatment from manufacturers?

I guess they just believe that our people (meant majority of them) don't bother; also the attitude of majority of them saying "kitna detha hai" has become synonymous with diesel rather than safety features
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Old 22nd January 2011, 16:28   #49
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Default Re: Why do diesel engine variants get step-motherly treatment from manufacturers?

Another great thread!
As mentioned elsewhere in this thread, this looks like more of a habit with Asian manufacturers. As GTO mentioned the Europeans are heavy advocates of clean and efficient diesel engines, and most of them have lower carbon emissions than the petrols.

The Japanese and Korean manufacturers play heavily on the VFM mentality, and sadly their cost cutting comes via stripping off safety options. On the other end, look at BMW - the recently launched X1 have all regular safety features standard across all trims, and then comfort features added into the exclusive diesel variant.

VW group is on the other end of this spectrum. Jetta petrol was offered only the trendline trim, now I hear that there is an even more stripdown version of Laura TSI launched - the Laura Classic!
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Old 22nd January 2011, 17:39   #50
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Default Re: Why do diesel engine variants get step-motherly treatment from manufacturers?

It is surprising that diesel cars were stripped for features compared to their petrol counterparts inspite of the 1 lac or so premium. It is just that they want to make as much profits as possible. I dont think the "premium" is fully justified in the first place as I dont believe that diesel cars are priced significantly above the petrol cars. It would be interesting to see if these companies can maintain the premium if and when the diesel prices are de-regulated (atleast for passenger diesel vehicles).
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Old 22nd January 2011, 19:43   #51
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Default Re: Why do diesel engine variants get step-motherly treatment from manufacturers?

manufacturers do not charge a premium as some of you state. first of all diesel engines cost more to make than petrol and secondly the govt. taxes diesel cars more then petrol. and thats why diesel cars cost so much more than petrol cars.

also there is no truth in stating that manufacturers charge "premium" and manufacturer rake in the "moolah" etc etc. with diesel cars. besides so what if they rake in the moolah? they are in the business of delivering profits to their shareholders.

also the reason for most diesel variants not coming with top end features is to keep costs down. abs and airbag are not still popular with most buyers and they would give it a miss rather than pay 60-90k more on top of the already expensive diesel variant.

Last edited by hollywoodhogan : 22nd January 2011 at 19:46.
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Old 22nd January 2011, 19:57   #52
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Default Re: Why do diesel engine variants get step-motherly treatment from manufacturers?

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Originally Posted by hollywoodhogan View Post
also the reason for most diesel variants not coming with top end features is to keep costs down.
Let me bring before you some questions.

1)Why did Japanese manufactures - Maruti, Hyundai, Nissan etc chose to keep the costs down whereas the European manufactures - Fiat, VW etc chose not to keep the costs down?

2) Why should manufactures keep the cost of diesel cars down by omitting safety features and creature comforts?

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abs and airbag are not still popular with most buyers and they would give it a miss rather than pay 60-90k more on top of the already expensive diesel variant.
But at the end of the day, there are several buyers like me who would prefer ABS and Airbags rather than saving nearly 60-90k. Period.

PS: No offense intended! In case if you're offended, feel free to report this post of mine to the moderators.

Last edited by Klub Class : 22nd January 2011 at 20:04.
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Old 22nd January 2011, 22:20   #53
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Default Re: Why do diesel engine variants get step-motherly treatment from manufacturers?

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Originally Posted by Klub Class View Post
Let me bring before you some questions.

1)Why did Japanese manufactures - Maruti, Hyundai, Nissan etc chose to keep the costs down whereas the European manufactures - Fiat, VW etc chose not to keep the costs down?

2) Why should manufactures keep the cost of diesel cars down by omitting safety features and creature comforts?



But at the end of the day, there are several buyers like me who would prefer ABS and Airbags rather than saving nearly 60-90k. Period.

PS: No offense intended! In case if you're offended, feel free to report this post of mine to the moderators.

1. don't compare manufacturers in this case, just compare cost of each manufacturers petrol and diesel variants and you will see the difference. maruti, hyundai and nissan DO NOT CHOOSE to jeep costs down, its just that their inherent processes, infra costs, manpower costs, indigenous manufacturing and costs are lower than europeans and so that makes their cars cheaper. (like our indian bpo call centers are cheaper than european or usa based call centers.)

2. manufacturers keep costs down to attract more buyers to specific models/variants. more the cost of a compact diesel hatch/sedan lesser the buyers & numbers. several 100s of crores of rupees are invested in each new model/variant and developing a variant for just a few buyers is not viable.

3. "several" buyers like you form a minority and are not financially worthwhile investing in, in a seperate variant, thats it. "needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few". this is a pure business decision, thats it.

4. since you are the one who feel that i will be offended, you can report yourself to the moderators.
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Old 22nd January 2011, 23:06   #54
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Default Re: Why do diesel engine variants get step-motherly treatment from manufacturers?

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Originally Posted by hollywoodhogan View Post
. maruti, hyundai and nissan DO NOT CHOOSE to jeep costs down, its just that their inherent processes, infra costs, manpower costs, indigenous manufacturing and costs are lower than europeans and so that makes their cars cheaper. (like our indian bpo call centers are cheaper than european or usa based call centers.)
You mean to say labor is cheaper in India and costlier in Europe where Ford/Fiat's are assembled?

And by this it means that our GP's and Figo's are manufactured outside India and Grand Vitara in India?
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Old 22nd January 2011, 23:20   #55
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Default Re: Why do diesel engine variants get step-motherly treatment from manufacturers?

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Originally Posted by Klub Class View Post
Let me bring before you some questions.

But at the end of the day, there are several buyers like me who would prefer ABS and Airbags rather than saving nearly 60-90k. Period.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hollywoodhogan View Post

3. "several" buyers like you form a minority and are not financially worthwhile investing in, in a seperate variant, thats it. "needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few". this is a pure business decision, thats it.
Both of you are correct - there are a group of people who like to go for a fully loaded variant because of safety features. And the fact is that not many of them still feel the need of it! Lots of my friends were surprised to see me waiting for 4 months to get the ABS version of swift.

I believe the government should make it a rule to have these features mandate in the base version itself ! Then it will become a standard.
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Old 23rd January 2011, 00:03   #56
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Default Re: Why do diesel engine variants get step-motherly treatment from manufacturers?

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Originally Posted by hollywoodhogan View Post
1. don't compare manufacturers in this case, just compare cost of each manufacturers petrol and diesel variants and you will see the difference. maruti, hyundai and nissan DO NOT CHOOSE to jeep costs down, its just that their inherent processes, infra costs, manpower costs, indigenous manufacturing and costs are lower than europeans and so that makes their cars cheaper. (like our indian bpo call centers are cheaper than european or usa based call centers.)
Pardon my ignorance, I didn't understand the reason why you say that manufacturing costs of European cars(Ford Figo, VW Polo, Fiat Punto in this case). After all they all are made in India by Indians.

Even if I resist myself from comparing different car manufacturers, the truth is still the same. I mean, the Europeans value the life of Indians more than what Japanese does!

Quote:
2. manufacturers keep costs down to attract more buyers to specific models/variants. more the cost of a compact diesel hatch/sedan lesser the buyers & numbers. several 100s of crores of rupees are invested in each new model/variant and developing a variant for just a few buyers is not viable.
I disagree with you.

Well, I've come across several advertisements where manufacturers try to attract the customers with taglines like 'price starts at Rs x.yz!'
Seriously, I'm yet to find an advertisement where they highlight the fact that 'the price ends at Rs x.yz!!'

My point is that manufacturers can still attract the customers by offering a stripped down variant at an mouth watering price and at the same time they can attract the customers who prefer safety features, by offering a higher end variant at a higher cost.

Quote:
3. "several" buyers like you form a minority and are not financially worthwhile investing in, in a seperate variant, thats it. "needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few". this is a pure business decision, thats it.

I agree that people like me form the minority.

But, speaking from a surely business perspective, the manufacturers can satisfy both the majority and the minority by offering several variants, with and with out safety features and creature comforts, right?

Quote:
4. since you are the one who feel that i will be offended, you can report yourself to the moderators.
Lol

Last edited by Klub Class : 23rd January 2011 at 00:08.
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Old 23rd January 2011, 00:30   #57
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Originally Posted by swiftnfurious View Post
And the fact is that not many of them still feel the need of it! Lots of my friends were surprised to see me waiting for 4 months to get the ABS version of swift.

Add to that, we've certain sales executives who advice the customers that ABS are required only in speeds excess of 100 km/hr! Sigh.

Let me ask - would you have opted Maruti Swift ZDi, if it was available at the time of your car purchase?

Quote:
I believe the government should make it a rule to have these features mandate in the base version itself ! Then it will become a standard.

I'm eagerly waiting for our goverment to to do so! I guess, I'm over optimistic!!
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Old 23rd January 2011, 00:36   #58
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Default Re: Why do diesel engine variants get step-motherly treatment from manufacturers?

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Originally Posted by hollywoodhogan View Post
1. don't compare manufacturers in this case, just compare cost of each manufacturers petrol and diesel variants and you will see the difference. maruti, hyundai and nissan DO NOT CHOOSE to jeep costs down, its just that their inherent processes, infra costs, manpower costs, indigenous manufacturing and costs are lower than europeans and so that makes their cars cheaper. (like our indian bpo call centers are cheaper than european or usa based call centers.)

2. manufacturers keep costs down to attract more buyers to specific models/variants. more the cost of a compact diesel hatch/sedan lesser the buyers & numbers. several 100s of crores of rupees are invested in each new model/variant and developing a variant for just a few buyers is not viable.

3. "several" buyers like you form a minority and are not financially worthwhile investing in, in a seperate variant, thats it. "needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few". this is a pure business decision, thats it.

4. since you are the one who feel that i will be offended, you can report yourself to the moderators.

Hi,

1. The point GTO and all other making here is the difference of Diesel engine cost ( Technology + Manufacturing) is already covered, then why manufacturers cut on features and that too safety (which should be last to cut).
2. Whether European or Japanese / Koreans, all try to make localisation maximum to keep cost low, which is best way then why customer should not compare between Europien and Japanese / Koreans offerings? why he / she should be bothered with manufacturers cost structure, if Japanese / Koreans have something wrong in their costing they should take some learnings from Europeans ( I don't think that it is about cost issue all companies have done their costing properly, it is only "Maximising Profits" as we called it in economics that manufacturer are practicing.

Anuj
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Old 23rd January 2011, 01:13   #59
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Default Re: Why do diesel engine variants get step-motherly treatment from manufacturers?

It's really not understandable what would it take for companies to have a top end model. My thoughts are that hatchback diesels are bought by cost conscious high mileage runners who really don't value the additional safety features.
Most companies would've come up with this decision based on Market Research, which would have shown the mass mentality and lack of understanding of safety.
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Old 23rd January 2011, 01:35   #60
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Default Re: Why do diesel engine variants get step-motherly treatment from manufacturers?

Most manufacturers just depend on the ignorant section of their customer base (which unfortunately is a majority) to sell inferior products. Diesel engines are more complex and cost more to manufacture, but not to the levels that can justify charging a hefty premium on the car, and still providing a relatively stripped down version. But most customer's don't question that.

Moreover, in a VFM-quotient driven market like India, a manufacturer knows that if he offers an option between a music system and ABS/Airbags, 9/10 customers will not blink twice before taking the music system.

Most small and medium-size cars sell most in their middle variants (irrespective of fuel-type), and even customers who buy the 'fully-loaded' one, rarely do it for the safety bits.

The customer base needs to change its approach, and the manufacturers will fall in line if they want to survive. But that seems to be distant dream.
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