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Old 25th January 2011, 04:39   #76
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Default Re: Why do diesel engine variants get step-motherly treatment from manufacturers?

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Originally Posted by SMK_BLR View Post
I think someone pointed this earlier in one of the posts on this thread, but it didn't become a point of discussion - or, is this something to be ignored? Nonetheless, bringing it up again.

European (punto, polo) and American (figo) petrol engines are not as good as Japanese (K series) and Korean (kappa) petrols. So, I guess European and American diesel cars are made more formidable by equipping them with all bells and whistles + safety features, with decent price tag? Otherwise, those diesels would also end up in the same state as petrols, sales wise?
IMHO, the car with all the bells and whistles today is the i20
the european and american hatchbacks seem pretty basically specced relatively, nevertheless with all relevant safety features as available in their corresponding petrol version
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Old 25th January 2011, 18:22   #77
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Default Re: Why do diesel engine variants get step-motherly treatment from manufacturers?

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Originally Posted by shankar.balan View Post
what about dear old Hyundai? even theyve been selling variants of their cars with all safety kit and at pretty good prices.
Have they not removed the rear disc brakes from the current i20 CRDi?

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Originally Posted by ajman28 View Post
The thread is a clear indicator that the Japs/Koreans are the ones who treat the diesel engines differently. This could be because that the diesel technology of the Japs/Koreans are still not refined in comparison to their European counterparts.
Or perhaps, because Maruti pays Fiat a royalty on each engine while Hyundai's 1.4 has a high level of import content. Either ways, and again, the price differential more than makes up for any difference in the cost of manufacturing.

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Originally Posted by vivekgk View Post
@SMK_BLR: When you say that European petrol engines are 'not as good', what exactly do you mean?
Except for the Laura TSI, I can't think of too many European petrols that impressed me. Fact is, Japanese petrol engines are generally the best.
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Old 25th January 2011, 18:40   #78
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Default Re: Why do diesel engine variants get step-motherly treatment from manufacturers?

Holy cow...the i20 1.4 CRDI asta and 1.4 AT asta 2011 BS 4 models HAVE rear discs as standard.
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Old 25th January 2011, 18:55   #79
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Default Re: Why do diesel engine variants get step-motherly treatment from manufacturers?

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Originally Posted by vignesh_ny View Post
It's really not understandable what would it take for companies to have a top end model. My thoughts are that hatchback diesels are bought by cost conscious high mileage runners who really don't value the additional safety features.
Most companies would've come up with this decision based on Market Research, which would have shown the mass mentality and lack of understanding of safety.
Absolutely right. In addition to this, a fully loaded diesel car will not have good resale value because the '2nd hand diesel' buyer is even more ignorant of safety. So the first hand buyer skimps on it. Its a vicious cycle.
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Old 25th January 2011, 20:15   #80
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Default Re: Why do diesel engine variants get step-motherly treatment from manufacturers?

May be because Govt is anyway giving step motherly treatment to Petrolheads, so why spare diesel safety conscious minority

On serious note, agree to most readers that the key deciding factor for an average diesel car owner is economy. If we add the higher engine costs, the only way the cars can be brought in affortable trim is cutting on the bells & whistles.
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Old 27th January 2011, 12:37   #81
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Default Re: Why do diesel engine variants get step-motherly treatment from manufacturers?

Guys,

When i bought my Getz Crdi in 2008 we had only 1 variant available i.e. GVS, this was an absolute stripped down version of any Getz available in the country. After shelling out a little above 6.5 lacs we dont even have the privilege of the rear defoggers, forget about the likes of ABS, Airbags which are really required on this monster. They didnt even have extended warranty on this model. Whereas the cheapest Getz in the market was the 1.1 litre petrol and that came in the GVS trim with the defogger.

I fail to understand this behaviour of auto manufacturers in India, atleast provide these features as an option for people who have no trouble in shelling out a few extra bucks.
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Old 27th January 2011, 12:46   #82
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Default Re: Why do diesel engine variants get step-motherly treatment from manufacturers?

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Swift Diesel: Want climate control or airbags? Sorry, not available. Even though the Swift petrol has a ZXI variant. Perhaps, Maruti thinks the life of a diesel car owner is less valuable?


More? I'm sure there are additional cars that can be added to this list. Leave it up to the discussion to bring them forth.

Full marks to manufacturers such as Tata, VW, Ford, Fiat and gang who don't make diesel-heads feel short-changed and give us identical variants / equipment list. To the others, a HUGE thumbs down.
Hi
May be they think that diesel owners are a stingy lot and dedicided that they will not offer the full loaded variants. In fact when I purchased my Swift the guy was telling me that i should consider it a gift that the car was given in less than 10days and for diesel version they do not offer even the dust for free (could you believe it ?) was really shocked since my prev car Wagon R had even the rear demister which is a sore point in the VDI.
The Toyota Etios has become stingy suddenly on all fronts (single wiper, lumbar support gone , not even leather seats)

Last edited by Rehaan : 27th January 2011 at 17:22. Reason: Fixing quote tag
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Old 27th January 2011, 13:42   #83
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Default Re: Why do diesel engine variants get step-motherly treatment from manufacturers?

Well, I guess its all about playing up their respective strong points. The Japanese / Koreans are good with petrol, they try to make the most of it, and they very well know that Indian VFM options are hugely dictated by mileage and running costs.

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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Except for the Laura TSI, I can't think of too many European petrols that impressed me. Fact is, Japanese petrol engines are generally the best.
How about those inline-6's from BMW (even though it could be history in near future)?
And I thought you quite liked the Fiat 1.4 TJet
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Old 27th January 2011, 13:50   #84
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Default Re: Why do diesel engine variants get step-motherly treatment from manufacturers?

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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Have they not removed the rear disc brakes from the current i20 CRDi?
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Originally Posted by sidindica View Post
Holy cow...the i20 1.4 CRDI asta and 1.4 AT asta 2011 BS 4 models HAVE rear discs as standard.
When i20 CRDi was launched, ALL the Diesel variants had rear discs + ABS. Magna was the lowest Diesel variant, and it came with all four disc brakes - this was chopped to add a chrome lip, FATC, 6-speed gear box and blue lighting in the control panels for the 2010 variant.

Its true that i20 at least has an option of having ABS in the higher Asta variant - but then, Hyundai did do away with sunroof and a few others from the top end for Diesel variant.

A fellow BHPian had opened this thread a while back on the difference between 2009 and 2010 i20 Magna variant (i20 Magna Diesel BSIII versus BSIV).

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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Or perhaps, because Maruti pays Fiat a royalty on each engine while Hyundai's 1.4 has a high level of import content. Either ways, and again, the price differential more than makes up for any difference in the cost of manufacturing.
Last I heard, all the Hyundai Diesel engines and power train are still being imported from Korea. They are yet to complete their Diesel engine manufacturing plant in Sriperumpudur - once that happens, we can see some interesting Diesels at interesting prices.


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Originally Posted by Speed-Freak View Post
Guys,

When i bought my Getz Crdi in 2008 we had only 1 variant available i.e. GVS, this was an absolute stripped down version of any Getz available in the country. After shelling out a little above 6.5 lacs we dont even have the privilege of the rear defoggers, forget about the likes of ABS, Airbags which are really required on this monster. They didnt even have extended warranty on this model. Whereas the cheapest Getz in the market was the 1.1 litre petrol and that came in the GVS trim with the defogger.

I fail to understand this behaviour of auto manufacturers in India, atleast provide these features as an option for people who have no trouble in shelling out a few extra bucks.
The Getz CRDi was a meant-to-fail, half-hearted effort by Hyundai, they did not have the economics right for the car - the engine and power train was fully imported, and they could not price it in line with the competition. They did not even advertise the car much. I had seen the Getz CRDi in Philippines with the Rear wash / wipe, disc brakes all around with ABS, music system, and a few more, for the same price - Philippines does not have that high an import duty like we do.
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Old 27th January 2011, 14:13   #85
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Default Re: Why do diesel engine variants get step-motherly treatment from manufacturers?

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Originally Posted by ph03n!x View Post
I think there should a rule / regulation making the essential security features mandatory.
It's a debatable point. And whenever I've thought about it, I always stop at one point.

Were it for compulsory ABS/ Airbags, so many 2-wheeler users would not have migrated to cars. Probably, it's best to let ABS/ Airbags remain optional, until most/ majority of ppl can afford a car; and 2-wheelers stop being a mode of conveyance born out of necessity.

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Originally Posted by Surviving Brain View Post
Interesting thread. This also brings to my mind another question. What else determines the difference between a Petrol and diesel (corresponding variant) of a car.

e.g. The difference between i20 petrol vs Diesel is > 1 lacs.
Between Swift petrol vs Diesel is ~75k.
Between Dzire petrol vs Diesel is ~85k.
Between Punto petrol and Diesel is just Rs45k.
Yes, I have often wondered about this too. Extra/ stronger metal can't cost a whooping lakh.

One explanation could be that the Asian manufacturers aren't sure about their diesel technology and factor in higher costs of servicing/ warranty while the Europeans are more sure about their diesel technology. A second, atleast with Maruti, could be the premium that it most likely has to pay, to Fiat, for it's diesel engines.

But that still doesn't explain the original question? I hope it's not because some manufacturers believe that the more responsible/ family-types ppl will purchase petrol vehicles and care more about safety. And I'm entirely serious!!

EDIT: A fellow BHPian answered in this thread that even Hyundai imports it's diesel engines while locally manufacturing the petrol ones. If that is the case, that explains the high pricing and also the resultant sacrificing of safety features/ trims.

Last edited by manishk83 : 27th January 2011 at 14:41.
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Old 27th January 2011, 15:42   #86
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Default Re: Why do diesel engine variants get step-motherly treatment from manufacturers?

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Originally Posted by manishk83 View Post
It's a debatable point. And whenever I've thought about it, I always stop at one point.

Were it for compulsory ABS/ Airbags, so many 2-wheeler users would not have migrated to cars. Probably, it's best to let ABS/ Airbags remain optional, until most/ majority of ppl can afford a car; and 2-wheelers stop being a mode of conveyance born out of necessity.
Just for the sake of argument - Would it be good to have unsafe cars cheap just so that it is reachable for new drivers who migrate from the world of two wheelers, or would making basic safety features made mandatory - ABS, front airbags, rear wipers - be the better option?

Let's keep in mind we have more people dying from road accidents than from cancer in our country. IMHO, not making safety features in cars mandatory to keep prices within reach for those migrating from bikes is the worst any government can do, may be second to the ever-rising fuel prices!

Last edited by ph03n!x : 27th January 2011 at 15:43.
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Old 27th January 2011, 16:03   #87
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Default Re: Why do diesel engine variants get step-motherly treatment from manufacturers?

Even as Hyundai's game plan was wrong with Getz, introduction of Swift might have killed it.
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Old 27th January 2011, 21:31   #88
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Default Re: Why do diesel engine variants get step-motherly treatment from manufacturers?

I am not too sure, but I guess it has something to do with the 'Price Perception'.

What I mean is, Maruti has made every effort to maintain the price of all its hatch backs around or below 6 lacs, making it look at bit of value for money when compared to other premium hatches like Jazz. If they were to offer a ZDI on the swift, it could go well beyond 7 lacs (atleast in a place like B'lore) . Now this would not only beat the price/value perception created by Maruti, but also encourage the customer to think of other segments, say a sedan or an SUV, when they make a buying decision.
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Old 27th January 2011, 21:54   #89
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Default Re: Why do diesel engine variants get step-motherly treatment from manufacturers?

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Originally Posted by ph03n!x View Post
Just for the sake of argument - Would it be good to have unsafe cars cheap just so that it is reachable for new drivers who migrate from the world of two wheelers, or would making basic safety features made mandatory - ABS, front airbags, rear wipers - be the better option?

Let's keep in mind we have more people dying from road accidents than from cancer in our country. IMHO, not making safety features in cars mandatory to keep prices within reach for those migrating from bikes is the worst any government can do, may be second to the ever-rising fuel prices!
I think competition and awareness would take care of having the safety features in cars. The more aware the customer is, he/she would know what to go for. Having said that - though the safety features improve a chance of prevention and survivability of/in accidents, it is also debatable how many of the unfortunate deaths could have been saved with the safety features. IMO drivers (and driving habits) are the biggest reason for the accidents. We definitely need more awareness there.
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Old 28th January 2011, 07:54   #90
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Default Re: Why do diesel engine variants get step-motherly treatment from manufacturers?

After a lot of search about various available hatchbacks, there is a reason i opted for Ford Figo Diesel Titanium as it is having good safety features and a brilliant OEM sound system, all i cared for was a diesel hatchback with airbags , it has it plus the ABS & EBD adds to the customer delight, i guess that is one of the reasons people loved the car with a great price tag & safety features in a diesel hatch.
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