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Old 29th January 2011, 13:23   #106
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Default Re: Why do diesel engine variants get step-motherly treatment from manufacturers?

would equipping Airbags make the driver more complacent and to rev up, thereby endangering others like two wheelers, cycles, pedestrians?
In that sense, airbags would put more life @ risk.. that without
offcourse, we save drivers of cars
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Old 29th January 2011, 16:34   #107
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Default Re: Why do diesel engine variants get step-motherly treatment from manufacturers?

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Originally Posted by KumaravelS View Post
would equipping Airbags make the driver more complacent and to rev up, thereby endangering others like two wheelers, cycles, pedestrians?
In that sense, airbags would put more life @ risk.. that without
offcourse, we save drivers of cars
That would be quite a naive statement to make, I dont think a driver would think, oh i have airbags lets rev this car and mow down some pedestrians.
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Old 29th January 2011, 18:49   #108
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Default Re: Why do diesel engine variants get step-motherly treatment from manufacturers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by KumaravelS View Post
would equipping Airbags make the driver more complacent and to rev up, thereby endangering others like two wheelers, cycles, pedestrians?
Doesn't your remark imply that car manufacturers should no provide airbags as there are high chances that the drivers might drive rashly and end up killing every guy that he spots on his way?

Perception vary from person to person, after all.

Last edited by Surviving Brain : 29th January 2011 at 18:50.
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Old 29th January 2011, 21:04   #109
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Default Re: Why do diesel engine variants get step-motherly treatment from manufacturers?

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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Now, be honest :
I reiterate : Full marks to the Europeans (Fiat, Ford, VW, Skoda etc.) for selling their diesel & petrol products in the exact same trim. Safety kit included.
Ford ? European ? Thats news for me
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Old 29th January 2011, 21:05   #110
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Default Re: Why do diesel engine variants get step-motherly treatment from manufacturers?

Sorry going to have to disagree with you here. Its like saying that disc brakes over drums instill the driver with confidence that he can brake much later. Thereby enticing him to drive faster.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KumaravelS View Post
would equipping Airbags make the driver more complacent and to rev up, thereby endangering others like two wheelers, cycles, pedestrians?
In that sense, airbags would put more life @ risk.. that without
offcourse, we save drivers of cars
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Old 29th January 2011, 21:18   #111
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Default Re: Why do diesel engine variants get step-motherly treatment from manufacturers?

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Ford ? European ? Thats news for me
Don't be surprised. The Figo & Fiesta are derived from Ford's European line up
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Old 29th January 2011, 21:23   #112
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Default Re: Why do diesel engine variants get step-motherly treatment from manufacturers?

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Originally Posted by pajero4me View Post
Ford ? European ? Thats news for me
Ford might be an American Manufacturer but none of the products we get here are American. Ikon is based on European Fiesta Mk IV, Figo and Fiesta are based on last gen European Fiesta Mk V and Endeavour is made only for Asia based on Ford Ranger platform. The soon to be launched Fiesta is the current Mk VI European Fiesta.
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Old 29th January 2011, 22:14   #113
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Default Re: Why do diesel engine variants get step-motherly treatment from manufacturers?

Ford Diesel (TDCi) engines are developed in collaboration with Peugeot & Citreon..
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Old 30th January 2011, 00:38   #114
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Default Re: Why do diesel engine variants get step-motherly treatment from manufacturers?

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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Now, be honest : Which manufacturer did you hear this from . C'mon, it's a ridiculous statement to make.
Fair enough. The diesel engine clatter and its' physics are a reality though.

The Physics of Resonance

Last edited by Fornax : 30th January 2011 at 00:48.
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Old 30th January 2011, 13:46   #115
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Default Re: Why do diesel engine variants get step-motherly treatment from manufacturers?

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Originally Posted by ashok_lat View Post
This may be because the dont want to keep a distance in terms of sales(ie no of Petrol cars sold should be more or less equal to no of sale of Diesel cars). If the have a petrol Variant fully loaded vs there Diesel variant with stripped out features over petrol there may be people who will go for a petrol variant. For eg. People who wants a Maruti Swift with go for more features will go for Swift ZXI over VDI. I do think that this may be due to balance the load and there long waiting period. With the current Petrol prices people will opt for more diesel cars than Petrol ones even if its a base versions.
+1 to that! I have always felt these numero uno carmaker is not doing enough justice for diesel cars. My main suspicion is it could not make or succeed with it's own diesel engines.
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Old 30th January 2011, 15:11   #116
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Default Re: Why do diesel engine variants get step-motherly treatment from manufacturers?

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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
The diesel cars listed below charge a premium of anywhere between 70,000 to 100,000+ rupees over the petrol variants. It's obvious that the differential cost of production (diesel vs petrol engine) is well covered. Why then, do these manufacturers give step-motherly attitude to the diesels?

Swift Diesel: Want climate control or airbags? Sorry, not available. Even though the Swift petrol has a ZXI variant. Perhaps, Maruti thinks the life of a diesel car owner is less valuable?

Toyota Altis: Relative to the petrol Altis, the diesel loses 8 way powered driver seat adjustment, lumbar support (not even manual), rear windscreen sunshade, cruise control and the optional automatic transmission. Get this, the Altis D-4D J variant doesn't even get airbags! Can you imagine a manufacturer of Toyota's repute selling a 10 lakh rupee sedan without two measly airbags?

Nissan Micra: In a shocking, inexplicable move, Nissan has removed the passenger side airbag and ABS from the diesel. The 2nd glove box isn’t available either. This, despite the Micra diesel costing over Rs. 80,000 more than the top-end petrol, and using the old Logan 8 valve engine.

Hyundai i20: Want the side & curtain airbags? A sunroof? Sorry, you'll have to opt for the 1.2 petrol engine instead.

More? I'm sure there are additional cars that can be added to this list. Leave it up to the discussion to bring them forth.

Full marks to manufacturers such as Tata, VW, Ford, Fiat and gang who don't make diesel-heads feel short-changed and give us identical variants / equipment list. To the others, a HUGE thumbs down.
One thing thats notable here is that the one's that differentiate between petrol and diesel gets their diesel engine outsourced while the one's treating both equal have their own diesel engines.
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Old 31st January 2011, 10:10   #117
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Lightbulb Re: Why do diesel engine variants get step-motherly treatment from manufacturers?

It is pertinent to note that whilst most high end cars (viz. the big three) have no "deal makers/breakers" when comparing their petrol and diesel models since they have more or less recovered their initial costs incurred at the time of R & D, palpable differences in interior features and safety are present in most smaller cars. This is driven by the cost of research (which is more often than not recent and yet to be materially and fully recovered) and/or royalty/licence fee payable to the -engine- technology licensor.

In simpler words:

Q. A car with a small D engine = A car with a small P engine

A. Engine Cost+Royaty for technology/Mark up to cover initial RnD+Basic interior costs in a diesel = Engine Cost+Safety features+Basic interior costs in a petrol.

In smaller cars, the manufacturers often trade safety features with premium technology for diesel's because most Indian buyers are price sensitive more so when they see a price reference point in the same cars' petrol cousin.

Meaning, “arre hum diesel gaadi k liye 2.5 lack extra kyu de jab petrol gaadi ussi airs bag k saath saste mein mil rahi hai” (picture your friend aditya’s fat momma talking) !

Sorry but true: what makes sense to the customers brain, often makes no economic sense to the manufacturer.

Last edited by Jaggu : 31st January 2011 at 10:34. Reason: Removing [Font] tags, please avoid copy paste from external font editors, also do Preview before Submitting posts. Thanks
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Old 31st January 2011, 10:55   #118
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Default Re: Why do diesel engine variants get step-motherly treatment from manufacturers?

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Originally Posted by narayan View Post
Even the price difference is purely driven by the price difference of the FUEL in India. I dont think it is any more/less expensive to make a diesel engine vis a vis a Petrol one.

at the end of the day, when there is STRONG demand for a diesel variant of the same car due to price difference in the fuel, manufacturers are bound to do this...
Absolute misinformation.

Diesel Engines cost a hell lot as compared to Gas engines. probably a Maruti 1.3 DDIS engine costs very easily in the range of 1.3-1.5 Lakh as compared to their K-Series engine which are close to 40-50 K range. Not to forget various other changes in Transmission and hazaar changes in Car itself, including wirings, suspensions (Diesel engine is way too heavy compared to petrol, probably 3 times more) and what not (Some manufacturer might change tire too) to take care of increased load distributions.
Load Duty and all taxes and one ends up paying much higher compared to the cost increases.

If at all, I think just to maintain low price difference between petrol and diesel, manufacturers tend to take out goodies. I also think just to ensure the above margins for manufactures on diesel cars tend to be lower than petrol cars.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hollywoodhogan View Post
manufacturers do not charge a premium as some of you state. first of all diesel engines cost more to make than petrol and secondly the govt. taxes diesel cars more then petrol. and thats why diesel cars cost so much more than petrol cars.
Again not true. Same Excise rate is applicable for Engine size below 1.5L for diesel and 1.2 L for Petrol.

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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Now, be honest : Which manufacturer did you hear this from . C'mon, it's a ridiculous statement to make.
Well that was partially true GTO. For Diesel Engines which have higher NVH levels, Manufacturers have to strengthen a lot of other chassis related items, so that a lot of components survive the vibration levels. However those who wouldn't think its good idea to invest in engineering design for all such component may take it out altogether. Commercial logic.

Last edited by anu21v : 31st January 2011 at 11:33.
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Old 31st January 2011, 15:50   #119
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Default Re: Why do diesel engine variants get step-motherly treatment from manufacturers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by KumaravelS View Post
would equipping Airbags make the driver more complacent and to rev up, thereby endangering others like two wheelers, cycles, pedestrians?
In that sense, airbags would put more life @ risk.. that without
offcourse, we save drivers of cars


Its just like saying - Oh, I have medical and life insurance. Why dont I jump in front of a bus.
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Old 31st January 2011, 21:25   #120
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Default Re: Why do diesel engine variants get step-motherly treatment from manufacturers?

Yes, one reason could be the outsourcing of engines. But I am in doubt again...Fiat Punto 1.2 Active costs 4.4 lacs and its corresponding diesel variant costs 5.25 lacs. There is no outsourcing of engines involved here.

Cost-wise, the higher cost may be due to heavier engine and outsourcing of the CRDI technology/equipment ( for newer models) and fuel injection pump (in older ones).

Auto companies' logic may be that already higher prices of diesel variants vis-a-vis petrol engined ones would further go up if offered with all the goodies / safety measures.

It is not just companies, many people do feel diesel vehicles are inferior.

Do companies make more money on petrol versions or diesel ones?

Personally, I would like to have a base model car with ABS and Airbags. I dont see a point in having power windows, fog lamps, MP3 player, body coloured bumpers etc which do not save you in case of an unfortunate collision. My point is, auto companies should provide safety features like Airbags and ABS as optional on base models too as many would prefer to pay more for these features than the convenience features.

I heard that Airbags are not covered by insurance companies. Is it true?
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