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Old 26th February 2011, 21:04   #16
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Default Re: Is India not a good market for MPVs?

Let us face it - the dividing line between SUV, station wagon, van and MPV is very thin.

Station wagons, while have a very niche market in India, will not sell in huge numbers due to classification and taxation laws - these are classified as goods vehicles.

Vans and SUVs do not have luggage loading space.

Vans and MPVs do not have the performance / power of SUVs.

Vans do not have the off road capability of an SUV.

Innovas are at best, vans. Definitely not vans.

I would not call Scorpios or boleros or Sumos proper "high performance" vehicles. Off road capable, certainly yes; but not "high performance". What is wrong with calling them MPVs? Hmmm.... come to think of it, they certainly lack luggage space when carrying 6 or 7 passengers. Ditto for taveras, Xylos and even the discontinued Qualis.

Arias and Safaris and other vehicles in that class are SUVs - luxury vehicles.

We certainly do lack a good vehicle capable of taking 6 or more people on a trip lasting 2 or more days. Forget camping, which will require lot more luggage space.

So, yes, there is a huge gaping hole waiting to be filled.
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Old 27th February 2011, 05:30   #17
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Default Re: Is India not a good market for MPVs?

I would submit that we are still an evolving market. the weekend long-drive culture is certainly catching up but is yet to really grow. for most of our countrymen a car is still a huge achievement and a luxury item. there are issues relating to weekend drives - proper consistent infrastructure across the country, safety, traffic conditions and the all important "time factor". Also lets remember India is a place of distances.

For example someone in the UK may well take a drive from say London to Yorkshire to spend a weekend - a distance of about 300 km which can be covered in about 3 hours approx on account of the road infrastructure. By the same yardstick, if one were to attempt a Bangalore Ooty trip on a weekend - it would take about 6-7 hours on average for a similar distance - 320km approx. If one were, on the other hand, to plan a 2 days weekend in Goa or somewhere, then one can easily catch a plane there and back and spend a (pretty hectic) 2 days!

@backseatdriver - I would not suggest the ARIA is really not an SUV. It is a luxury MUV/ MPV. Of the Indian offerings, the only ones that can be spoken of as SUV's as of now are the Safari and the Scorpio.
All the rest like the Innova, Xylo, Aria etc are MUV/MPV's. Same with the Sumo Grande which can at a pinch be called a 'comfortable semi-luxury MUV'. And the Bolero and its kind which are standard utility level MUV/MPV's.
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Old 27th February 2011, 12:14   #18
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Default Re: Is India not a good market for MPVs?

Had hired both a Sumo on Xylo on successive days two weeks; one in GA and other in KA.

We had only 5/6 pieces of luggage (all sized right to qualify as hand baggage on int'l flights) between 4 adults and 2 kids. The occupant(s) of last row had to share the seat with luggage on both on both vehicles. I would call the xylo more a van than anything else.

Both lack luggage space when carrying 6 or more passengers. Not MUV/ MPV class.
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Old 27th February 2011, 13:23   #19
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Default Re: Is India not a good market for MPVs?

To be honest, if one was to compare the Innova to the MPVs one gets in countries like Hong Kong, Singapore etc (these are very good MPV markets), you will know how small the Innova is.

The thing about India is, a vast majority of the 4 wheeler category (which in itself is very small), can only afford small cars. And also the perception here that MPVs are more of people movers rather than a 'family' car with some amount of prestige value.

For instance, if I were to take something in the 15 L range, I would prefer to go in for a Civic, Laura, Cruze or if not then maybe a Yeti, G Vitara, and then give consideration to an inbetween ride like the MPVs. And also the cost. A decent, real MPV will be in the range of what th Aria is and for the first time the Aria is close to a full fledged MPV that one gets abroad, but look at the price.

So at the end of the day, it is to do with pricing and the perception or rather the acceptance of this mode of transportation

Some samples for reference
Is India not a good market for MPVs?-dsc05431_1400x1050.jpg

Is India not a good market for MPVs?-dsc05476_1400x1050.jpg

Is India not a good market for MPVs?-dsc05660_1400x1050.jpg

Is India not a good market for MPVs?-dsc05693_1400x1050.jpg

However, with these beauties, if and when they do come to India, they maybe able to draw a decent crowd and not just let us be content with MPVs like the Innova, Xylo.
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Old 27th February 2011, 13:46   #20
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Default Re: Is India not a good market for MPVs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by avisidhu View Post
Another point I would like to make is that there is a significant difference between the expectations for an MPV between the Urban and the Rural market. And if you think about it, this segment sees a significant buying contribution from the rural folks (unlike say, sedans). Case in point being the Scorpio and Bolero (and a couple of others). Not strictly MPV's, but you can understand what I'm trying to get at.
Thatís an interesting point. Completely agree!


Quote:
Originally Posted by veyron_head View Post
Moreover, MPVs neither offer the ease of Hatch/sedans, nor the image of a SUV. It only makes sense for people who travel extensively with family and also prefer to drive their
own car.
This is true to an extent. But nowadays, the new age MPVs is generally based on a hatch or sedan platform, and share similar dimensions and drivability. And yes, it definitely does not give the cool look of a sedan, nor the macho look of a SUV.

In general, if you are driving an MPV, it is very likely to get branded as someone who drives a boring car


Quote:
Originally Posted by BaCkSeAtDrIVeR View Post
Let us face it - the dividing line between SUV, station wagon, van and MPV is very thin.

Station wagons, while have a very niche market in India, will not sell in huge numbers due to classification and taxation laws - these are classified as goods vehicles.

Vans and SUVs do not have luggage loading space.
Vans and MPVs do not have the performance / power of SUVs.
Vans do not have the off road capability of an SUV.

Innovas are at best, vans. Definitely not vans.

Arias and Safaris and other vehicles in that class are SUVs - luxury vehicles.

We certainly do lack a good vehicle capable of taking 6 or more people on a trip lasting 2 or more days. Forget camping, which will require lot more luggage space.

So, yes, there is a huge gaping hole waiting to be filled.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaCkSeAtDrIVeR View Post
I would call the xylo more a van than anything else.

Both lack luggage space when carrying 6 or more passengers. Not MUV/ MPV class.
Well, for me what we call as MPVs are people movers, with the option of sufficient luggage space. These cars are not for any kind of off-roading purposes. Thatís where SUVs get into the picture.
Estate versions of Sedans are generally 5-seaters with additional luggage capabilities. And we can leave out estates here as it is a known fact that they donít enjoy a good market here.

In the current market, I can think of just 3 names which can qualify as a proper MPV Ė Innova, Xylo and Aria (the last one being a luxury MPV with 4x4).

Quote:
Originally Posted by shankar.balan View Post
I would submit that we are still an evolving market. the weekend long-drive culture is certainly catching up but is yet to really grow. for most of our countrymen a car is still a huge achievement and a luxury item. there are issues relating to weekend drives - proper consistent infrastructure across the country, safety, traffic conditions and the all important "time factor". Also letís remember India is a place of distances.

For example someone in the UK may well take a drive from say London to Yorkshire to spend a weekend - a distance of about 300 km which can be covered in about 3 hours approx on account of the road infrastructure. By the same yardstick, if one were to attempt a Bangalore Ooty trip on a weekend - it would take about 6-7 hours on average for a similar distance - 320km approx. If one were, on the other hand, to plan a 2 days weekend in Goa or somewhere, then one can easily catch a plane there and back and spend a (pretty hectic) 2 days!
Agree with you Shankar. But a good-sized MPV can be a regular car which gives the luxury having occasional family drives. One of the big plus I have seen with an MPV is that, if you are a family man with 1-2 kids, the flexible seating options of MPVs will help in easily accommodating 1-2 child seats.
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Old 27th February 2011, 20:58   #21
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Default Re: Is India not a good market for MPVs?

Indians do appreciate MPVs. Both the Omni and WagonR are bought for their MPV like attributes they offer at a very reasonable price. They have been in the top5 bestsellers for a while now. Keep in mind in our culture its OK to stuff people in cars with out bodies sticking to each other which means you dont necessarily need a 7 seater MPV to carry 7 people.

Now you are talking about lifestyle MPV that have taken Japan and Europe by storm. (Zafira, Scenic) and thats a different segment.

Last edited by Mpower : 1st March 2011 at 02:26.
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Old 27th February 2011, 23:26   #22
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Default Re: Is India not a good market for MPVs?

If I have to generalize - India is still not a good market for expensive cars

Though a few hundred expensive cars (~ 20L) are being bought every month, the market still hasn't evolved to push around at least 1L expensive cars per year. So yes we are still an evolving market.

And as a few others suggested, VFM MPVs like Eeco has always sold well. May be TML's venture will add to the segment in the near future. And if we have good MPVs in the Rs. 5L to Rs. 7L category it will sell in good numbers. We'll have to see how the upcoming Xylo CS fares in the segment.

At this point I guess the "average car price" of the indian market is around Rs. 6L. And if there are more SUV/MUV/MPVs are available in the price range they will be bought in larger numbers.

@shankar.balan:
Why do you say ARIA is not an SUV? Though TML wants to project it as a SUV crossover, it qualifies to be called as an SUV and not MUV/MPV. The primary reason being that it is built on a light truck chassis and has off-roading capability due to AWD. Coming to think of it I am not sure what a safari / scorpio can do that ARIA can't other than having a little better off-roading capabilities. On the same note there are 4X2 variants of Safari and Scorpio which I assume have less off-roading capabilities than ARIA. I don't think we could call ARIA to be an MUV/MPV just by the looks.
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Old 28th February 2011, 09:17   #23
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Default Re: Is India not a good market for MPVs?

I've had a SAFARI for more than 2 years now, and have since of late been wondering if I need to have a 7 seater?
  • 90% of the time I have only carried 5 people or less, which any Hatchback could have done
  • 75% of the time I did not use the luggage space
  • On hindsight, the extra people I carried 10% of the time could have been accomodated in an Auto or dropped altogether
  • Luggage space 75% of the time could have been carried on a luggage carrier
  • But what cannot be replaced is the image and the luggage carrying capacity. We shifted our house in the SAFARI and carried a fridge home last week
The point I am tyring to make is that MPVs like the INNOVA offer the best combination, the XYLO with the third row of front facing seats is either a all people or luggage carrier, you cannot carry 7 people and their luggage
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Old 28th February 2011, 09:36   #24
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Default Re: Is India not a good market for MPVs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by thedreamcatcher View Post
To be honest, if one was to compare the Innova to the MPVs one gets in countries like Hong Kong, Singapore etc (these are very good MPV markets), you will know how small the Innova is.

However, with these beauties, if and when they do come to India, they maybe able to draw a decent crowd and not just let us be content with MPVs like the Innova, Xylo.
Yes, and that was the point I was trying to think through. If Innova can be a success (with the given price range), why not other manufacturers can emulate that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by thedreamcatcher View Post
For instance, if I were to take something in the 15 L range, I would prefer to go in for a Civic, Laura, Cruze or if not then maybe a Yeti, G Vitara, and then give consideration to an inbetween ride like the MPVs. And also the cost. A decent, real MPV will be in the range of what th Aria is and for the first time the Aria is close to a full fledged MPV that one gets abroad, but look at the price.

So at the end of the day, it is to do with pricing and the perception or rather the acceptance of this mode of transportation
Agreed, if there is around 10-15 lakhs to spend, the choice is always between a Sedan or a SUV. But I guess thatís because there is no decent 3rd option available in that price range. And now with Aria selling in decent numbers, its quite clear that there is a good market for compact 7-seaters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mpower View Post
Indians do appreciate MPVs. Both the Omni and WagonR are bought for their MPV like attributes they offer at a very reasonable price. They have been in the top5 bestsellers for a while now. Keep in mind in our culture its OK to stuff people in cars with out bodies sticking to each other.

Now you are talking about lifestyle MPV that have taken Japan and Europe by storm. (Zafira, Scenic) and thats a different segment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gshanky View Post
If I have to generalize - India is still not a good market for expensive cars

Though a few hundred expensive cars (~ 20L) are being bought every month, the market still hasn't evolved to push around at least 1L expensive cars per year. So yes we are still an evolving market.

And as a few others suggested, VFM MPVs like Eeco has always sold well. May be TML's venture will add to the segment in the near future. And if we have good MPVs in the Rs. 5L to Rs. 7L category it will sell in good numbers. We'll have to see how the upcoming Xylo CS fares in the segment.

At this point I guess the "average car price" of the indian market is around Rs. 6L. And if there are more SUV/MUV/MPVs are available in the price range they will be bought in larger numbers.
Good points above. Completely agree that the market is still evolving for expensive cars. But for the past couple of years, I can see that the market is kind of exploding (more than what even the manufacturers thought of). And thatís we see long waiting periods for many recently launched models (ranging from Toyota to BMW).

My view on this topic was mainly looking at cars like Innova, Xylo and even Aria. And the latter is doing good numbers, even though tagged as expensive (Apologies for tagging in Aria here. It could be marketed as a cross-over, but I am sure most of the buyers look at Aria predominantly due to the space offered).

The MPVs I mentioned in the opening post fall into the C+ segment price category, and even have almost similar dimensions.

Attaching a comparison Ė just to show that a compact MPV need not be huge - Comparing with our own Honda Civic & Fiat Linea
And all the models listed can actually fall in the C/C+ segment sedan price range (except for the Ford S-Max, which could be a segment higher).
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Old 28th February 2011, 13:47   #25
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Default Re: Is India not a good market for MPVs?

Hi Gshanky - I dont want to spark a debate here but I want to submit the following.

Your points are well appreciated. But in my opinion the ARIA is more of a luxuriously appointed van/ MUV/MPV with 4WD than an SUV per se.

Yes the Scorpio and Safari in their 2WD versions are little more than soft roaders but they have more SUV genes than MUV genes, most certainly.

I would not want to put the off roading capabilities of the ARIA very seriously to the test - the 4WD in this case is meant more for greater control, when encountering slushy and/ or snowy/icy conditions on normal tarmac. The ARIA is NOT meant for extreme off road work - in that sense it is a soft roader. Its shape and overall characteristics and utility orientation lead me to classify it as a Luxuriously appointed VAN/ MPV/ MUV.

Of course, this statement, as with most other such statements, is largely a matter of opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gshanky View Post

@shankar.balan:
Why do you say ARIA is not an SUV? Though TML wants to project it as a SUV crossover, it qualifies to be called as an SUV and not MUV/MPV. The primary reason being that it is built on a light truck chassis and has off-roading capability due to AWD. Coming to think of it I am not sure what a safari / scorpio can do that ARIA can't other than having a little better off-roading capabilities. On the same note there are 4X2 variants of Safari and Scorpio which I assume have less off-roading capabilities than ARIA. I don't think we could call ARIA to be an MUV/MPV just by the looks.
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Old 1st March 2011, 04:22   #26
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Default Re: Is India not a good market for MPVs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by shankar.balan View Post
Hi Gshanky - I dont want to spark a debate here but I want to submit the following.

Your points are well appreciated. But in my opinion the ARIA is more of a luxuriously appointed van/ MUV/MPV with 4WD than an SUV per se.

Yes the Scorpio and Safari in their 2WD versions are little more than soft roaders but they have more SUV genes than MUV genes, most certainly.

I would not want to put the off roading capabilities of the ARIA very seriously to the test - the 4WD in this case is meant more for greater control, when encountering slushy and/ or snowy/icy conditions on normal tarmac. The ARIA is NOT meant for extreme off road work - in that sense it is a soft roader. Its shape and overall characteristics and utility orientation lead me to classify it as a Luxuriously appointed VAN/ MPV/ MUV.

Of course, this statement, as with most other such statements, is largely a matter of opinion.
Hi Shankar,

Appreciate your response. I don't want our discussion to hijack this thread. So created a new thread for our specific discussion - http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...uv-thread.html

Your response(s) will be appreciated.
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Old 1st March 2011, 11:28   #27
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Default Re: Is India not a good market for MPVs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheARUN View Post
I've had a SAFARI for more than 2 years now, and have since of late been wondering if I need to have a 7 seater?
  • 90% of the time I have only carried 5 people or less, which any Hatchback could have done
  • 75% of the time I did not use the luggage space
  • On hindsight, the extra people I carried 10% of the time could have been accomodated in an Auto or dropped altogether
  • Luggage space 75% of the time could have been carried on a luggage carrier
  • But what cannot be replaced is the image and the luggage carrying capacity. We shifted our house in the SAFARI and carried a fridge home last week
That's a very valid point you made . And that's the precise reason why the market for MPVs (even SUVs) will not evolve beyond a point. The utility of these vehicles is simply not there for a majority of Urban families. We recently purchased an ANHC over an Innova for the same reasons you mentioned above.
But yes, a mini Xylo with a sub 6 lakhs budget might crack a segment yet untouched by most automakers in India.
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Old 1st March 2011, 13:50   #28
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Default Re: Is India not a good market for MPVs?

Maruti alone sells around 14 thousand units (per month) of its Omni and Eeco put together. So there is a demand, I guess. No offence to the owners and users (mentioning these brands only as an example), but the boxy styling of these vehicles was a put off when I was looking for a people mover myself. If the vehicles can be designed more appealingly, these vehicles could sell even more.
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Old 1st March 2011, 15:37   #29
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Default Re: Is India not a good market for MPVs?

Basically MPV is Multi Purpose Vehicle. Means can be used for various purpose without any modification

I guess biggest MPV in India are Maruti Omni & Bolero. People are using these vehicles for various reasons. We need more such MPV's. Eeco, Sumo, Trax, Commander, Travera, Even Innova, Gypsy etc all are MPV's only. These are mainly used for carrying people & luggage. If we get good vehicle in 5-6 L range which can carry 6-8 people, has decent power, good looks then it will be sure shot hit. Indians prefer maximum output from there vehicles. Hope Xylo CS will be a good option.
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Old 1st March 2011, 16:02   #30
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Default Re: Is India not a good market for MPVs?

People in Delhi can confirm this. I usually travel to Vasant Vihar and one thing that i have noticed is that every second house in Vasant Vihar has an Innova along with the other cars they own.

They are usually chauffeur driven. I call Vasant Vihar Innova-land these days. Lots and lots of Innovas there.

So I think MPVs do have a good market in India.
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