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Old 17th April 2012, 14:15   #106
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Default Re: New Motor Vehicles Act: Stricter penalties- Now Cabinet-Approved!

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Originally Posted by fast&furious View Post
Just imagine the following situation (based on the fine structure in scorpiobharth's post)
A Maruti 800 and a Captiva are caught for over speeding. Both vehicles were going @ 85kmph. M800 owner is fined Rs.8000!!! and the Captiva owner is fined Rs.25000!!!
Does it make any sense? And in reality which car was driven more dangerously? Of course the M800. Doing 85kmph in a Captiva is a lot easier. And how many of us are ready to pay Rs.8000-12000 for driving a car @ 85kmph?! And non bailable arrest for repeated offence. I just cant understand the way in which some people think.
The point is not to generate revenue but keep the fines so steep and unaffordable that people wont dare to challenge the rules. or try to break them. If people are willing to pay tax as percentages, why not traffic fines? The basic objective of a traffic fine is to act as a deterrent and not to be affordable. What you say is exactly the point some here are trying to make. None of us is willing to pay such steep fines and so will be more careful not to break any rules/ limits.

In your case, if the M800 is going straight at 85 kmph then it is safer than a Captiva which could be zig zagging at 85 kmph. Only reusing the example to say that easily acheivable speeds does not equate to safe driving. Its not the car that causes accidents, its the person driving it.

I dont see why you want to pay the fine! In this case even I cannot understand the way in which you are thinking. NOM
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Old 17th April 2012, 15:37   #107
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Default Re: New Motor Vehicles Act: Stricter penalties- Now Cabinet-Approved!

It is good to have a strict laws.

Some of the items that should be included :-

In case of accident - if it is caused due to invisible/ absent signs indicating speed limit/speed breaker/village ahead, if a road is not well maintained etc then a case should be slapped on concerned person in charge of these things along with the driver.

Liquor shops should not be located on major roads; atleast a 100 metres distance should be maintained from the mainj road and no sign borad shall be visible from the main road. ( a notification can be made as to which roads are qualified under this).
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Old 17th April 2012, 23:32   #108
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Default Re: New Motor Vehicles Act: Stricter penalties- Now Cabinet-Approved!

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I feel you have missed the initial part of the post. Why not give it a deep thought than scoffing at it outright? It was only an invitation to think that whatever fine imposed on an Audi owner is nothing and he might still continue to repeat the offence.

"5000/- would hurt a 2-wheeler offender, but is peanuts for an LC200 owner or even an Audi owner"

Doesn't it make sense that, if the tax is proportional to the cost of the vehicle, so has to be a fine? And by doing high-speed easier on a vehicle only makes it easier to break the law.
Fines for repeated offences should be high and it is high. Why such huge fines first up? Rs.25000! What is the purpose of road tax? Increase in revenue. So they try to get more from people who are ready to spend more for their cars. That's not the case with fines. I have already mentioned that in my previous post. Fines are for decreasing the no. of accidents. Everyone is equal in front of the law. Same offence, same penalty. Cost of the car has nothing to do with the casualty in the case of accidents. There should be rules to cancel the license of repeat offenders but it should be applicable for everyone. It shouldn't be like "Oh you drive an Audi. Your license is canceled for ever". "Oh and you drive a Nano. Don't worry mate, keep burning the rubber. No penalties, no license cancellations. We will milk the big boys."

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Originally Posted by selfdrive View Post
The point is not to generate revenue but keep the fines so steep and unaffordable that people wont dare to challenge the rules. or try to break them. If people are willing to pay tax as percentages, why not traffic fines? The basic objective of a traffic fine is to act as a deterrent and not to be affordable. What you say is exactly the point some here are trying to make. None of us is willing to pay such steep fines and so will be more careful not to break any rules/ limits.

In your case, if the M800 is going straight at 85 kmph then it is safer than a Captiva which could be zig zagging at 85 kmph. Only reusing the example to say that easily acheivable speeds does not equate to safe driving. Its not the car that causes accidents, its the person driving it.

I dont see why you want to pay the fine! In this case even I cannot understand the way in which you are thinking. NOM
Oh God... This is a democratic country. You are talking about systems that existed in 17th century when Kings ruled India. During that time the punishment for even the smallest of crimes were so big that people were afraid to even raise their voice. If that system was so good, why don't we see it today? As I said earlier who wants to be on the wrong side of the law? If strict and strong action is taken against repeat offenders, who will try to break the laws. No one will repeat an offence if he knows that they're gonna cancel his license. And by the way we are not talking about murderers or burglars. Non bailable arrest for repeat offenders? Such statements are just ridiculous.

How many of us drive under 70kmph on highways all the time? In the Trivandrum-Kollam portion of the NH47, the police have placed speed radars. So if you go beyond 80kmph, you will receive a nice little gift within a few days . So even if you see a clear stretch of road in front of you, you cant go past 80kmph! Imagine someone driving at 90kmph without knowing this and paying a fine of Rs.25000!

Coming to the M800 vs X1 or Captiva example. Who told you that the Captiva was zig zaging? Your own imagination I guess. Yes, it's the person driving the car that causes accidents but there are cars with technologies that can certainly help you in emergency situations. ABS, Brake assist etc etc are there for obvious reasons.

Compare a Volvo with some of the popular cars here in India. Which car is safer? Of course it depends on the driver but that factor being kept constant which car is safer? At high speeds, which car is better in terms of handling etc? And many of these cars come with technologies like pop up bonnet too that protect the pedestrians. So it's not just the passengers they care about.

Last edited by fast&furious : 17th April 2012 at 23:36.
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Old 18th April 2012, 13:22   #109
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Default Re: New Motor Vehicles Act: Stricter penalties- Now Cabinet-Approved!

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Originally Posted by fast&furious View Post
Coming to the M800 vs X1 or Captiva example. Who told you that the Captiva was zig zaging? Your own imagination I guess. Yes, it's the person driving the car that causes accidents but there are cars with technologies that can certainly help you in emergency situations. ABS, Brake assist etc etc are there for obvious reasons.
Nobody told me anything buddy. I stated clearly that I am taking the example further to state another possibility. As your example is hypothetical so is mine.

As for traffic fines to be segregated, I still maintain that in Indian cities fines should be a % of OTR vehicle cost. we have such pathetically narrow usable carriagewidth, and offending bigger vehicle is likelier to cause a worse jam than say an offending bike. This is my opinion and you have yours. In fact you should be glad that the authorities dont share my opinion. In any case democracy is not getting us anywhere; everyone just behaves as they like; just look around, there is enough boorishness on display.
I never said anything about non bailable arrests as far I remember, it may have been someone else. Do put forth your suggestions to solve this mess, the discussion will be more fruitful.

At the end of the day, there is a reason why traffic is better regulated in the developed countries. And if we cannot replicate their self discipline (well most of the time), we either need to think out of the box to instil it in people or stop cribbing and continue the way we are. And I am afraid that if we continue down the latter route, chaos is not too far away. In fact it already happens most of the times in most of the crowded places. How many accidents and deaths will it take before we realise that we are just a rowdy bunch of drivers who need every bit of discipline that can be instilled? And no, it is not possible for this driving discipline to imbibed. If it were, some progress should have been seen by now.

Whenever I drive on the highways, I am around 80kmph. Maybe because I dont trust the road surface or other drivers much, but thats my story. At the same time, people are whooshing about at 100 and some even around 150, changing lanes, jumping dividers and so on. If they are a threat to my life, I have the right to have a strong opinion to keep them in check. What other ways exist to get such people to see sense and stay at the legal speed limits; I would like to know.

Last edited by selfdrive : 18th April 2012 at 13:29.
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Old 18th April 2012, 13:57   #110
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Default Re: New Motor Vehicles Act: Stricter penalties- Now Cabinet-Approved!

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Originally Posted by drmohitg View Post
One thing I havent understood is how are they going to ascertain if its your first offence or otherwise? Atleast in bangalore cops have got blackberry phones. I haven't seen anything like that in Delhi.
Not everyone gets fined in Bangalore .
I have seen the best and some of the worst traffic cops in Bangalore . Unlike Mumbai ,motorists here have no respect for the cops nor are scared of BTP .

So many times , I have seen bikers not stopping when signalled by the traffic cops on one-way streets . People ride triple seat , without helmets . I see drivers talk on the mobile phone ,not wear seat belts and run red lights right in front of cops here . These useless BTP personnel are also not bothered ,as they are more interested in collecting fines without receipts than ensuring safety on the road .

Having said that , I have seen some really sincere and honest BTP personnel who would brave anything to manage the traffic and apprehend offenders .

Higher fines would act as a deterrent for sure ,but at the same time I would want to see fines for the following as well:
  1. Driving with folded mirrors
  2. Compuslorily have SVM on both sides for all vehicles ( 2/4 wheelers)
  3. Fine vehicles which breakdown on the road ,as this is because of poor maintainance
  4. Empower traffic police to stop vehicles which may not be safe to run- like worn out tires ( dunno if this already exists)
  5. Strict laws in place where police personnel in an area are punished in case of any driver breaking rules during the day time . Other motorists can take pics and upload this like we do for Bangalore Traffic Police on Facebook
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Old 18th April 2012, 14:22   #111
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Default Re: New Motor Vehicles Act: Stricter penalties- Now Cabinet-Approved!

Fines should definitely be increased. A Rs 100 today has no value at all. However more than that IMO the people enforcing those laws should be efficient. Cops are generally not bothered. No one wants their licences confiscated for whatever reason, because that would mean wasting my time to get it back. Here in Kolkata when a challan is given to you, one needs to take that to one of the banks listed behind it and pay the fine there. Post that the payment receipt requires to be taken to the respective police/traffic outpost to get your license back.Sometimes the place to get the license is a 35km drive. Too much hassle. In other countries the situation is better because not only are the fines high but also the cops are very strict which here in our country is rarely seen.



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[*]Fine vehicles which breakdown on the road ,as this is because of poor maintainance[/list]
I cant agree that breakdown is always because of poor maintenance. What about situations where you have a flat tyre ? If a cop comes to fine me for that am sure I will give him a piece of my mind.
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Old 18th April 2012, 14:27   #112
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Nobody told me anything buddy. I stated clearly that I am taking the example further to state another possibility. As your example is hypothetical so is mine.

As for traffic fines to be segregated, I still maintain that in Indian cities fines should be a % of OTR vehicle cost. we have such pathetically narrow usable carriagewidth, and offending bigger vehicle is likelier to cause a worse jam than say an offending bike. This is my opinion and you have yours. In fact you should be glad that the authorities dont share my opinion. In any case democracy is not getting us anywhere; everyone just behaves as they like; just look around, there is enough boorishness on display.

Do put forth your suggestions to solve this mess, the discussion will be more fruitful.

At the end of the day, there is a reason why traffic is better regulated in the developed countries. And if we cannot replicate their self discipline (well most of the time), we either need to think out of the box to instil it in people or stop cribbing and
....
And no, it is not possible for this driving discipline to imbibed. If it were, some progress should have been seen by now.
I was simply stunned by the suggestions put forward by someone there. Coming to the comparison. See when two cars are compared, you always consider the other factors such as weather,driver etc as constant. That's what I was referring to. At 90kmph which car is more stable and safe? Just wanted to make things clear. Leave it.

Even if a % of the OTR price is charged as fine, how can you justify a fine of Rs.25000 for driving at 85-90 kmph?! And costly vehicle doesn't always mean big vehicle. They are only a little bit bigger than the popular sedans here. And another fact is that more people die because of bike accidents; not car accidents. A speeding bike is indeed more dangerous than a speeding car. At least a car can protect the ones in it.

Yeah, our country is certainly not on the right path. Future doesn't look too bright. But, in my humble opinion self discipline is not the only reason why no. accidents is less in the foreign countries. They have much better infrastructure and the cars they drive are generally much better than the cars we have here especially when it comes to build quality and safety features(not to mention the engines ). The no.of bikers is very small too. And the speed limit is very often over 110kmph in those countries which is very decent. So I think the first step is infrastructure development. But unfortunately it's not in our hands. I'm now thinking about what 'we' can do as a community to reduce the no.of road accidents.
Oh and about the non-bailable arrest. The whole issue started from that single post. I was referring to the rules and penalties mentioned in that post in my previous posts(even in the examples).
It doesn't matter if it's a % of the OTR price or Ex showroom price; a fine of Rs.25k for driving @ 85kmph just doesn't make any sense to me. Sorry.

So what can we do to reduce the no.of accidents?Any ideas pals?

Last edited by fast&furious : 18th April 2012 at 14:31.
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Old 18th April 2012, 14:56   #113
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Default Re: New Motor Vehicles Act: Stricter penalties- Now Cabinet-Approved!

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.

I cant agree that breakdown is always because of poor maintenance. What about situations where you have a flat tyre ? If a cop comes to fine me for that am sure I will give him a piece of my mind.
Obviously no one would fine you for having a flat tire . I am talking only about mechanical failures .
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Old 18th April 2012, 15:00   #114
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So what can we do to reduce the no.of accidents?Any ideas pals?
I think a good start would be inculcating some sensitivity which we seem to have lost over the last 20 years or so. As a society.

I have seen a few demos in Europe where the impact of fast driving is explained via a demo car. For example, there was a car at the Belgian F1 GP in 2010 which used a demo for a roll. The users could choose a particular speed at which the car would be travelling hypothetically, sit in the car and wear seatbelts. This car was then rotated a number of times at a relevant speed to indicate how times it would flip and at what speed. If someone indicated a speed of say 80, they would be told that we flipped you slow, but in reality your car would have flipped, say 5 or 10 times faster. And there would be no safety rod to ensure your car goes in one direction.
Something like this probably would be a small step in the correct direction. I think the car manufacturers need to be nudged to initiate this as part of their campaigns. Can they not be asked to take more responsibility in this area? Not a legal mandate, but something that can be used as an advert platform too.
Not sure if it happens much here in India.

Last edited by selfdrive : 18th April 2012 at 15:01.
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Old 18th April 2012, 15:01   #115
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Originally Posted by fast&furious View Post
a fine of Rs.25k for driving @ 85kmph just doesn't make any sense to me. Sorry.
I'm not nit-picking or mud slinging, but have to point out that the above line examples the essence of the counter-thought. To keep the fines astronomical. If an amount of fine, say Rs. X/- (way lesser than 25k) makes sense to anyone, it is more likely that the person has a tendency to downplay the importance of the fine.

I am not for astronomical fines blindly. Transparency is primarily necessary to make sure no misuse is happening, if at all astronomical fines are to be imposed -
Proof of violation, to be issued to the offending party, so that he cannot deny his offence and authorities cannot misuse the law.
Ease of payment of fine, so that no harassment occurs on the payment front.

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So what can we do to reduce the no.of accidents?Any ideas pals?
I vote for incorporating 'traffic' and 'manners' both as compulsory subjects into our school education. Later at the college level, 'community', 'transport', 'life skills' should also be made compulsory. It is not that the un-educated are making the most of the accidents.

Last edited by thoma : 18th April 2012 at 15:21.
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Old 18th April 2012, 17:24   #116
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Oh God... This is a democratic country. You are talking about systems that existed in 17th century when Kings ruled India. During that time the punishment for even the smallest of crimes were so big that people were afraid to even raise their voice

So even if you see a clear stretch of road in front of you, you cant go past 80kmph! Imagine someone driving at 90kmph without knowing this and paying a fine of Rs.25000!
' A hefty punishment for even the smallest of crimes ...that people were even afraid to raise their voices ' - my friend this is precisely what we need on Indian roads to improve the sorry state of affairs. Do pardon my ignorance but I simply fail to see the connection between Democracy & traffic management.

The issue being discussed is that of fines being a deterrent. Do you honestly believe that Rs.100 or Rs.500 serves the purpose of a 'deterrent' for a person driving a car these days ?
You have suggested cancelling the DL - sure thats an even greater deterrent. The flip side is that if properly implemented, half or more of the driving public would loose their licenses in a matte of weeks. For this strategy to work, there first has to be a better system of tranining.

However, for a person driving up a clearly marked one way street or parking beneath a clearly visible no-parking sign, its not the lack of training that leads to the problem but his\her attitude towards fellow road users and the law. This lot can possibly be discouraged if there was a hefty fine (commensurate to his \ her financial status which is normally co-related to the type of car one drives) waiting on the other side of their misdemeanour. Do you not agree with this logic ?

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Originally Posted by fast&furious View Post

Yeah, our country is certainly not on the right path. Future doesn't look too bright. But, in my humble opinion self discipline is not the only reason why no. accidents is less in the foreign countries. They have much better infrastructure and the cars they drive are generally much better than the cars we have here especially when it comes to build quality and safety features(not to mention the engines ). The no.of bikers is very small too. And the speed limit is very often over 110kmph in those countries which is very decent.

So what can we do to reduce the no.of accidents?Any ideas pals?
In all of these countries, high fines and possible licences cancellations plan an important role ALONG with attitude of road users. One cannot undermine the importance of monetary penalties. The fact that these high fines continue to exist even today is testament to this.

To reduce number of accidents - there is need to focus on the future (next generation of road users) and the short term (current crop of drivers on the road). Improvement in road infrastructure, driver training, licensing procedures (I hope I dont get barred from this forum for sounding like a broken LP!!) are THE most significant changes that need to be introduced from a long term perspective. At the same time we also need strong deterrents, such as hefty fines & endorsements\cancellation of licences in parallel. Oh and a well paid, professional, independent traffic police force helps.
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Old 18th April 2012, 18:51   #117
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There ya go! I'm getting the replies.
I'm not willing to continue this argument. I have decided to go the 'selfdrive' way .
But there are a few points worth mentioning here to make things a little more clear. I'm not quoting any posts.

1)What is the income of a average Indian car owner. A 10-15k fine can seriously affect him/her. A fine of even 2000 is more than enough for most people. It's not about whether we can afford to pay a fine of Rs.2000 or not. Are we ready to waste Rs.2000? That's the question here. And I'm sure the answer will be a NO.

2)Unlike burglaries or other crimes, traffic offences are not preplanned and are not always intentional.

3)Most of the fatal accidents occur due to over speed(v.high speeds), untimely overtaking etc. There's no point in fining a guy who is enjoying his driving @ say...80-90kph.

4)Democracy and traffic management are not interrelated but Democracy and people's welfare are. The Govt. cant take policies that can seriously hurt the people.

5)In foreign countries, they can raise the fines as much as they want because in a normal situation one will never have to break the rules. In a country like India the situation is very different. Most of the people break the rules every day. So no comparisons please.

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I have seen a few demos in Europe where the impact of fast driving is explained via a demo car. For example, there was a car at the Belgian F1 GP in 2010 which used a demo for a roll. The users could choose a particular speed at which the car would be travelling hypothetically, sit in the car and wear seatbelts. This car was then rotated a number of times at a relevant speed to indicate how times it would flip and at what speed. If someone indicated a speed of say 80, they would be told that we flipped you slow, but in reality your car would have flipped, say 5 or 10 times faster. And there would be no safety rod to ensure your car goes in one direction.
Something like this probably would be a small step in the correct direction. I think the car manufacturers need to be nudged to initiate this as part of their campaigns. Can they not be asked to take more responsibility in this area? Not a legal mandate, but something that can be used as an advert platform too.
Not sure if it happens much here in India.
Great idea but hard to implement in a country like India. But I think Govt. can push for it.
Why not conduct TBHP Road Safety Awareness Programs?
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Old 18th April 2012, 20:48   #118
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There ya go! I'm getting the replies.
I'm not willing to continue this argument.
We seldom have arguments in here. We are trying to have an impersonal, objective discussions to bring out different perspectives. The issue in question is worthy of discussion.

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.

1)What is the income of a average Indian car owner. A 10-15k fine can seriously affect him/her. A fine of even 2000 is more than enough for most people. It's not about whether we can afford to pay a fine of Rs.2000 or not. Are we ready to waste Rs.2000? That's the question here. And I'm sure the answer will be a NO.
Precisely. Fines MUST hurt, if they are to be deterrents.

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Unlike burglaries or other crimes, traffic offences are not preplanned and are not always intentional
Agreed. Most accidents do not happen because someone wanted to hurt someone else. But almost every accident happens because of improper driving habits, ignorance of traffic laws and regulations & apathy towards other road users. If your car \ bike were bumped from behind when you were stationary at a signal .. or someone destroys the side view mirror of your parked car ...or I could go on and on ... None of this was intentional but for SURE these are traffic offences which could have been averted had the perpetrators been driving in the prescribed manner.


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Most of the fatal accidents occur due to over speed(v.high speeds), untimely overtaking etc. There's no point in fining a guy who is enjoying his driving @ say...80-90kph
Speeds are subjective. While many of us get the impression that 80 - 90 kmph is a safe speed specially when we have buses doing in excess of 100 kmph and cars \ SUVS going much faster than that. But 80 kmph is fast enough to get you into serious trouble even if you crash into an oncoming vehicle travelling at a sedate 40 kmph. Sure on a divided highways with clear visibility, no animals and no vehicles being driven up the wrong way, 80 - 90 kmph is a safe speed limit

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Originally Posted by fast&furious View Post
Democracy and traffic management are not interrelated but Democracy and people's welfare are. The Govt. cant take policies that can seriously hurt the people.

5)In foreign countries, they can raise the fines as much as they want because in a normal situation one will never have to break the rules. In a country like India the situation is very different. Most of the people break the rules every day. So no comparisons please.
This discussion thread is about traffic and we need to be objective here. If you are taking about welfare, think about the 1,30,000 people who die on our roads every year.Thats not a small number. Its twice the population of the Lakshadweep Islands. And the thousands of survivors whos lives are destroyed on account of their injuries.

Having lived outside India I can vouch for the fact that there may be fewer occasions when one is tempted to break the law. However no system is perfect to the point that road users never feel the need to do so. But when that need arises a couple of things stop me from breaking the rules
(1) I am trained to be sympathetic to road users - even the ones that are breaking the law - careless pedestrians \ Jaywalkers, cyclists in the wrong lane, the truck driver trying to execute an impossible U turn
(2) If I am caught breaking the law the fines are exorbitant and not worth the one or two minutes that I might save.

However in the Indian context its as if '1' and '2' simply do not exist. Precisely why this discussion centred around '2' is important.
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Old 18th April 2012, 23:06   #119
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Fines will hurt even if it's Rs.2000 or Rs.3000. The no. of casualties should come down but you have to take into account the population and the infrastructure too though there are no excuses for it. And speeds of 80-90 is not dangerous on most of the good roads here.

What I meant by saying that traffic offences are not like other crimes is that you cant consider the traffic offenders as criminals. So you cant treat them like criminals (like burglars or murderers).

And you believe that people buy supercars and drive fast to save time? No. Nobody buys a supercar thinking "Oh this car is powerful. I can save approx. 7.5454 minutes. So I'm gonna buy it". It's because of the fun to drive factor that people buy them.

No matter what you say, in a country like India where infrastructure is so poor, people's income is not proportionate to the cars they buy, this is not practical.
You cant reduce the no.of accidents just by raising the fines. It's a step by step process.
1st step : good infrastructure.
2nd step : implement a good sensible set of rules.
3rd step : decide on the harsh penalties for those who break those rules.

You are talking about 3rd step without even thinking about the other two more important ones. Where's the infrastructure and where are the rules? I already mentioned in my previous post that most of the people are knowingly or unknowingly breaking the law here because of the shortcomings of the rules. And if you raise the fines to such huge numbers, you will have to make sure that every person who break the law is punished. Is it gonna happen here? I live in India and you live in Germany my dear friend. There are quite a lot of differences.

And there's no point in continuing this discussion as the Govt. is luckily showing no intention raise the fines again in the near future.

Back to the main issue that I wish to discuss about. What can we do to reduce the no.of road accidents?

Last edited by fast&furious : 18th April 2012 at 23:12.
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Old 19th April 2012, 22:36   #120
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Default Re: New Motor Vehicles Act: Stricter penalties- Now Cabinet-Approved!

A little OT, but I don't know where else I can post this. The Chacha Nehru Traffic Training park in Sanghumugham, Trivandrum has been reopened. So bhpians in Trivandrum, please take your kids to the park and let them play n learn.
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