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Old 7th April 2011, 16:39   #31
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Default Re: Maruti Suzuki to recall 13,157 Diesel engine cars

An update on my earlier post. Its already out on the TOI online edition.
MSL Stocks slip on the bourses!

Maruti Suzuki stock slips on products recall - The Times of India
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Old 7th April 2011, 16:57   #32
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Default Re: Maruti Suzuki to recall 13,157 Diesel engine cars

Quote:
Originally Posted by ObsessedByFIAT View Post
Is'nt this the second time this is happening with maruti? Previously it was with A-Star and now their hottest selling hatch and sedan?

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...akh-stars.html (Indian recall: Maruti Suzuki to replace fuel gaskets in 1 lakh A Stars)

Cheers!
Replacing parts like fuel gaskets, brake pads, beading or any such plug & play parts are easy, but any engine related replacements is a major issue.
Even if it was not a replacement & if any customer had such an issue it would have been a major service bill

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Originally Posted by @Chaand View Post
Maruti is playing it safe and is pretty tightlipped on this as well. So far they have not mentioned as to what has prompted this recall. Not too sure, if the Indian dailies have mentioned this point in today's editions. If not, it may get published soon. Sales may not be affected given the aura which MSL has in India.

My queries on this were:
1. For the labour involved for this activity by the dealerships - will Maruti reimburse the dealerships seperately (just asking this out of curiosity).
2. How does this affect the warranrty on the engine. Assume that the part was indeed defective in a particular engine - how does Maruti find out the overall impact to the engine. Or are they managing it by replacing affected parts as well ?
Times Of India carried the news on its bottom front page (Bangalore edition), but without much inside info. Any layman reading this would not know that this is a engine related job, most of them would assume it's just some connecting rod related to suspension/steering etc
Maruti pays Rs.100/hour to dealers for warranty jobs in A class cities like metros, bangalore, hyderabad etc, much less in Tier-II & III cities/towns. Dealers wont make any money in this replacement job, Infact they loose money as this seems to be a critical job which just cannot be rushed through like they do in 1st & 2nd free service.

As to how it affects the warranty after the replacement job, the jury is still out on this.
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Old 7th April 2011, 22:39   #33
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Default Re: Maruti Suzuki to recall 13,157 Diesel engine cars

The problems with recalls of components which are critical and essential (especially Con-rod bolts and other internal engine components) is that there is no checkpoint post the retrofitment job to verify that the job is done right.

In the factory atleast after assembly the engines goes through numerous quality checks. Besides the tools are rightly calibrated and the assemblers trained to do a particular job right.

But in a recall, the same job will be performed at various different points (service stations) and might not be done in consistent manner.

I would definitely not feel good if my factory assembled engine has to be opened up in any sort of way so early on in its life.
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Old 7th April 2011, 22:52   #34
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Default Re: Maruti Suzuki to recall 13,157 Diesel engine cars

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Originally Posted by GSMINC View Post

Maruti pays Rs.100/hour to dealers for warranty jobs in A class cities like metros, bangalore, hyderabad etc, much less in Tier-II & III cities/towns. Dealers wont make any money in this replacement job, Infact they loose money as this seems to be a critical job which just cannot be rushed through like they do in 1st & 2nd free service.
Bingo! Considering that this is not exciting monetarily, the quality of work is not something which will leave people smiling. The sad part is that there are no metrics to measure this. An owner would not be able to decide whether to leave the rod as it is or go in for the replacement.

Last edited by @Chaand : 7th April 2011 at 22:54.
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Old 7th April 2011, 23:12   #35
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Default Re: Maruti Suzuki to recall 13,157 Diesel engine cars

Usually such critical fasteners come under "special hardware" category. Any idea what is wrong with these bolts? Con rod bolts are usually torqued in 3 stages- 1 base stage and 2 angular stage, there is solid reasoning behind this torquing philosophy. Following things might be among the Failure modes:-
1. Length of bolt
2. Grade of bolt
3. Type of bolt supplied depending on shank, head, pitch etc.

What size is this M9 x 1.0? Owners with any pics of these?

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Old 8th April 2011, 06:53   #36
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Default Re: Maruti Suzuki to recall 13,157 Diesel engine cars

@1100D

True it is a pity that some amount of engine work will have to be done so early in the life. But fortunately in this case as already mentioned, the engine does not have to be disassembled. Just its bottom, that is the sump has to be removed to access the part to be replaced.

Having said that, replacing con-rod bolts is a pretty critical operation. These bolts in the assembly line, are tightened by automated machines, to a specific torque setting. But the job can still be doe by trained people with the right kind of tools.

@Spike

I doubt the length or type of bolt would have been wrong. I think these would have been spotted by somebody during assembly. There may be some mistake in the grade though, as this cannot be spotted by the naked eye. My guess is there is some metallurgical issue with the bolts, which may cause failure over-time.

M9x1.0 refers to the thread. M9 basically means an outer thread diameter of 9mm and a 1mm lead, ie the thread causes an axial movement of 1mm per 360 degrees of rotation.
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Old 8th April 2011, 08:22   #37
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Default Re: Maruti Suzuki to recall 13,157 Diesel engine cars

Already there are apprehensions about 'opening' the engine for that fix. IMHO this has made a huge dent on Maruti Diesel's credibility. People just put all their money on Maruti (esp Diesel for the assurance), but seeing this as a full news article in all the Major newspapers around the country, IT HURTS!!! :(
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Old 8th April 2011, 08:37   #38
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Default Re: Maruti Suzuki to recall 13,157 Diesel engine cars

Quote:
Originally Posted by julupani View Post
I doubt the length or type of bolt would have been wrong. I think these would have been spotted by somebody during assembly. There may be some mistake in the grade though, as this cannot be spotted by the naked eye.
By length I meant a few mm which may go unnoticed. Even grades can be traced as they are usually indented on the bolt head, don't know about this case.

Quote:
My guess is there is some metallurgical issue with the bolts, which may cause failure over-time.
Yes, possible.

Quote:
M9x1.0 refers to the thread. M9 basically means an outer thread diameter of 9mm and a 1mm lead
M9 is the bolt major dia and 1.0 is the pitch here same as lead (lead = pitch on a single threaded screw L= n x P)

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Old 8th April 2011, 08:48   #39
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Default Re: Maruti Suzuki to recall 13,157 Diesel engine cars

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Originally Posted by julupani View Post
@1100D

the engine does not have to be disassembled. Just its bottom, that is the sump has to be removed to access the part to be replaced.
.
Yes, I know what needs to be done, but still its not a convenient job. Knowing how the conrods are connected to the engine in an engine plant. In most cases the block is placed upside down andlater in the assembly process the block is flipped the right way.

The whole exercise will take a different meaning when having to do this on an already installed engine.



Quote:
Originally Posted by julupani View Post
@1100D
Having said that, replacing con-rod bolts is a pretty critical operation. These bolts in the assembly line, are tightened by automated machines, to a specific torque setting. But the job can still be doe by trained people with the right kind of tools.
Absolutely, it can be done, infact have seen quite a few engine rebuild operations. But,when this needs to be done for so many engines at one go at so many different geographical points, who will be the evaluator of the quality of the retrofitment performed? The owner.

Moreover there is no guarantee that even trained people will do the job right. Especially since this is not at the plant with downstream quality checkpoints.

Not a good feeling at all.
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Old 8th April 2011, 09:43   #40
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Default Re: Maruti Suzuki to recall 13,157 Diesel engine cars

What is approx number number of cars we are looking at. Anyone did the Maths yet?
Being a Maruti I have a sinking feeling it will be huge.
And I am also apprehensive that it might turn out to be a huge botched up job. This job if done by machines with very specific settings then it unlikely to be done to perfection by technicians.
Keeping my fingers crossed.
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Old 8th April 2011, 10:17   #41
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Default Re: Maruti Suzuki to recall 13,157 Diesel engine cars

For recalls and similar jobs a Technical Service Bulletin (TSB) is issued by the manufacturer outlining the step by step procedures (SOP) , precautions to be followed by the technician. If you happen to take your car for this repair, insist the Service Manager to stick with the recommendations on the Service bulletin otherwise it will be "just another repair job".

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Old 8th April 2011, 10:58   #42
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Default Re: Maruti Suzuki to recall 13,157 Diesel engine cars

@Spike

Grade would be mentioned on the head by a general purpose bolt manufacturer. In this case where Maruti will be using lakhs of bolts, special purpose bolts need not have the grade marked on the head. They are just recognised as conrod bolts.

@1100D
It wont be done on so many engines at one go at all. This replacement wont all be done on one day at one place. It will be done by ASCs all over the country, each on not handling more than a 30-40 cars on average, over a period of what I imagine will be a 2-weeks to one month.

And I dont think replacing the con-rod bolt is such a complicated job that owners need to very seriously concerned about the quality of job to be performed.

It is though a pretty inconvenient job, considering the fact that the technician will have to work over his head continuously. But in today's world of pneumatic nut-runners not that bad. Remember this is not going to be handled by your average garage, but by authorised service guys who will have all the requisite tools to handle the job.

I dont think we can look for a guarantee. What's the guarantee that the machine at the factory is correctly setup?? As you can see it is the manufacturer's bungle up which has caused this whole episode in the first place.
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Old 8th April 2011, 11:42   #43
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Default Re: Maruti Suzuki to recall 13,157 Diesel engine cars

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Originally Posted by julupani View Post

I dont think we can look for a guarantee. What's the guarantee that the machine at the factory is correctly setup?? As you can see it is the manufacturer's bungle up which has caused this whole episode in the first place.
As I see it, the problem is not in the installation of the part. Problem is with the part itself. So we are not talkng about wrongly setup machines here but lack of QA/C from Maruti (or third party manufacturer) who could not identify the defects at source.

I really wanted to know who is the supplier of this 'con rod bolt' part.
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Old 8th April 2011, 12:30   #44
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Default Re: Maruti Suzuki to recall 13,157 Diesel engine cars

There is another problem, too. Owners of some of the affected cars would quietly try to push them off into used car market. Now on, one has to be careful in buying a used Swift/Dzire/Ritz and would do well to check the mfg. period to prevent ending up with a lemon.
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Old 8th April 2011, 12:43   #45
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Default Re: Maruti Suzuki to recall 13,157 Diesel engine cars

Don't think this is a problem with only DDis engine. From this article in AutocarIndia, looks like Fiat and Tata may also have to recall their cars.

http://www.autocarindia.com/news/tat...-maruti-recall

If this is true, then Kudos to Maruti for taking the first step.
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