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Old 18th January 2006, 15:06   #16
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And before I'm drowned with replies saying that I am anti-Fiat, let me remind you once again that my post was intended to push for a more balanced view of the alliance here. We are fools if we think this grand alliance was created so that we could buy Palios again.

Be realistic, try to look at the bigger picture.
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Old 18th January 2006, 15:16   #17
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There is another angle to it steer, you are right.
Remember all Maruti dealers harping about Diesel swift in June. Well its not coming before dec and thats also not sure.
A Swift Diesel at 5L could wreak havoc with indigo. If they introduce a swift sedan diesel at 5.8L with multijet engine it could have ruined the indica turbo and indigo market in one shot.
Has Tata on entering an alliance with Fiat ensured that Maruti may have to source its engine from elsewhere. With maruti out, Hyundai's crdi remains the only threat and that too only when they start manufacturing the common rails in india.
Delay of diesel competition gives Tata breathing space.
Tata Indica is the leader and has the first mover advantage.
Tata indica turbo is the first turbo hatch.
With this deal Tata ensures that tata has the first common rail hatch and the cheapest common rail diesel.
What does Fiat get? Well their plants start running. They dont have to go through the customer confidence building excersise as they piggy back on Tata.

What else does Tata get. Its gets to market its product abroad in a better way, esp in europe. Rover experiment failed. Now Fiat has to sell Tata cars in Europe and tata has to sell Fiat cars in india, simple. Fiat is not going to roll back its cars in europe to accomodate Tata and vice a versa. So what makes sense is that Let Fiat with Tata engine compete with Swift/Getz. Indica cant comete with those, you need a fresher looking vehicle, like the New Palio or something like that. In diesel space indica turbo is good enough till others come out with modern engine. Breathing time of a year means tata will have common rail in passenger car space before anybody else does.
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Old 18th January 2006, 15:17   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steeroid
How is the Palio 1.2 a 'niche' product and why would someone want to buy the 1.2 over everything else available in the market today?

Like I said, there must be more to it. I wont be surprised if it involves commercial vehicles as well. Wait and watch - either this alliance will reshape the industry, or it will fizzle out pretty soon if there isnt enough to keep the Tata's interest in this deal.
I called it by that name because I did not know any other word. What I meant to say is the kind of setup Skoda/VW/Audi have. One is positioned below/above the other and marketed that way. The fact that Tata has reduced the price of Indica Petrol by a whopping 30 grand pushes it to the Alto territory. With the present price of Palio 1.2 itself, there is a sizeable price distinction between these two products. Which one is better and which one the customers buy will be best left to them. Tata and Fiat are just trying to position these products in some way best known to them at this point of time.

I agree that this is just the beginning of the relationship and there is still a lot to be done. There was a talk about joint development of products (platforms, engines and product designs). There was also a talk of joint development of commercial vehicles. There is also a talk of sharing the factories in India. The only thing finalised so far is the sharing of select Tata dealerships. I agree that this relationship is still in its infancy and how it winds up, only time can tell. But there are potential hurdles at every possible alliance they are planning to make. For example, Fiat has already licensed its 1.3 multijet engines to Suzuki to manufacture. If Tata decides to have that engine in Indica/go, I wonder how this can be done. Also, Fiat had/ve (not too sure about the tense here ) a tie-up with Ashok Leyland thro' their Iveco. Iveco, as you all know, is the truck producing arm of Fiat. Now that AL is a compitetor to Tata, how will this fit in to the present scene? All these are challanges the alliance need to thrash out and it is not going to be easy.
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Old 18th January 2006, 15:22   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steeroid
And before I'm drowned with replies saying that I am anti-Fiat, let me remind you once again that my post was intended to push for a more balanced view of the alliance here. We are fools if we think this grand alliance was created so that we could buy Palios again.

Be realistic, try to look at the bigger picture.
Dont you worry. What you say makes sense. Agreed that this alliance is a lot more than Palio/Indica/Petra/Indigo.
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Old 18th January 2006, 15:52   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deepakhon
Also, Fiat had/ve (not too sure about the tense here ) a tie-up with Ashok Leyland thro' their Iveco. Iveco, as you all know, is the truck producing arm of Fiat. Now that AL is a compitetor to Tata, how will this fit in to the present scene?
If you remember there was a time when rumours were flying around about Fiat talking to the Hindujas. In the end it turned out that the talks were about Fiat pulling out their equity stake from Ashok Leyland.

That way, there is no conflict of interest in the Commercial Vehicles segment - after Volvo's success here I'm sure a lot of heavy vehicles manufacturers are looking at this country, particularly in view of the robust economic growth. Makes sense for Iveco to set up shop here, and what better way to do so than with Tata, who have already signalled their intentions to bring in their Daewoo range of heavy vehicles...
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Old 18th January 2006, 15:55   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steeroid
If you remember there was a time when rumours were flying around about Fiat talking to the Hindujas. In the end it turned out that the talks were about Fiat pulling out their equity stake from Ashok Leyland.
I vaguely remember something like this but was not too sure. That is the reason I had indicated I was not too sure about the tense (had/ve).
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Old 18th January 2006, 17:02   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kpzen
How will it be to see a indica 1.6 GTX engine....sounds freaky....
Maybe not so freaky... if you look at those 100bhp Indicas they are fielding in the Auto Shows nowadays. The kind of performance figures they are doling out for this 100bhp car is pretty shocking for an Indica.
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Old 18th January 2006, 17:14   #23
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By the way Steer, is it legally feasible for Tata to stop Maruti from introducing the Fiat Multijet at this stage? The way international contracts are drawn if Fiat tries to pull out from the contract at this stage when Maruti has already started building the plant and even the roll-out date is tentatively fixed they will have to field a barrage of lawsuits. Tata being their Indian partners now may also have to face the brunt.

Uhuh... I am not very sure about Maruti having to face any problems of Fiat pulling out from the alliance. It won't be that easy now.
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Old 18th January 2006, 17:22   #24
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For people doubting Maruti's usage of Fiat JTD: Maruti won't run business on whims of other company. If it is agreed upon earlier, it has to be respected by Fiat or it will face hefty penalty. It can't be as simple as, "Jaa. Meri bat-ball hai, main tumhe khelne nahi dunga. Ab sirf mere naye dost ke saath hi khelunga".
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Old 18th January 2006, 17:28   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zappo
Uhuh... I am not very sure about Maruti having to face any problems of Fiat pulling out from the alliance. It won't be that easy now.
I agree with Zappo. TATA shouldn't mind maruti using the multijet engine. They might start selling indicas with the same engine calling it DICOR !!
How many Indian car owners know about the origin of their engines anyway?
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Old 18th January 2006, 19:36   #26
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I own a Siena 1.6 ELX myself....My only interest in the Tata -Fiat Alliance is very selfish..
I just hope that the Palio/Petra Platform continues in the 1.2 or 1.6 Avatar in some way or the other...either by Fiat or by Tata...
So that
- I get Spares
- I get better service...

Sales happen in what form...what is the branding..packaging...pricing...I care 2 hoots..
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Old 18th January 2006, 20:29   #27
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Default Palio it is!!!

I am totally ignorant about the Tata Fiat stuff coz i dont read much of newpapers or auto magazines anymore.

As far as i have seen there is some tie up in between these two companies, and i saw something in the TV few days back regarding the same.

The reason why i am talkin here is, I believe Palio 1.2 is a awesome car in certain sense. Everyone is aware that I am proud santro owner. But when it comes to comfort, handling, ruggedness, space, looks, acoustics, built quality... I dont think many of the entry cars can compete. Its still pretty looking to start with. I am currently using a palio and its been a month. I know it drinks a lot and acts like a diesel engine in lower rpm. But once the engine starts pulling its a different story. Even the 1.2 can give a decent speed of 140Km/hr at 3 gear. Has anyone tried that one on a palio 1.2. Any its oversteers at high speed... awesome.

But i dont feel the car is as reliable as a santro... very sad. Ofcouse I dont have any rim bends compared to my santro. The A-piller is a killer, sometimes u dont see a whole car when ur takin a turn.

Another fact is, the whole front tire inner has worn of in the palio 1.2 at 13,000 Kms... while on my santro at 25,000 Kms there is something left out. I wonder why?
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Old 18th January 2006, 21:40   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by general_neo
I am currently using a palio and its been a month. I know it drinks a lot and acts like a diesel engine in lower rpm. But once the engine starts pulling its a different story. Even the 1.2 can give a decent speed of 140Km/hr at 3 gear. Has anyone tried that one on a palio 1.2. Any its oversteers at high speed... awesome.
Another fact is, the whole front tire inner has worn of in the palio 1.2 at 13,000 Kms... while on my santro at 25,000 Kms there is something left out. I wonder why?
What happened to your Turbo santro...!!!!!!!
3rd gear 140kph in a palio1.2 u are crazy
I always thought understeer is preferred option at high speeds n u say oversteer is awesome...
About your front tyre wear....check out your allignment...
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Old 18th January 2006, 22:11   #29
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Until both the car makers make a official announcement we don't know what's going to be their game plan. In any case, I don't think either of them are going to axe or downgrade their models for the other. Would Fiat stop selling the Panda in Europe just because their dealers will also have to sell Indica's there? I say let the market decide what car it wants and at what price. Sell all the variants and let the buyers decide what they want. The question that I want answered is how are the dealers going to sell the cars together. Lets take a scenario.

There will be many people who wouldn't know anything about the TATA-Fiat deal. One such person goes to a TATA dealer to take a look at the Indica Petrol. Then he sees a Palio in the same showroom. Foxed, he asks the salesguy what a Palio is doing there. On getting the answer, the guy suddenly takes a liking for the Palio and is suddenly more interested in the Palio then the Indica that he originally wanted. What does the salesguy and the dealership do now? There could be 3 things that could happen:

1. If profit on both cars is same, the dealership will guide and help the customer make the correct decision. This is a ideal situation that will work really well for both the companies. But, do both the cars have the same margin? What about spares and service? if the dealership makes more money on servicing Fiat they may still push the customer towards the Palio even though they make less money selling it.

2. Palio has better money. Now dealership will try and push the customer towards the Palio.

3. Indica has more money. Now the salesguy will run the Palio down and will try to sell the Indica.

If either situation 2 or 3 happens, it wouldn't be fair to either TATA, Fiat or the customer. Only the dealership would gain.

Maybe some bhpian can go to a TATA dealer in March and do this experiment.

Last edited by amit : 18th January 2006 at 22:18.
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Old 19th January 2006, 12:47   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steeroid
If you remember there was a time when rumours were flying around about Fiat talking to the Hindujas. In the end it turned out that the talks were about Fiat pulling out their equity stake from Ashok Leyland.

That way, there is no conflict of interest in the Commercial Vehicles segment - after Volvo's success here I'm sure a lot of heavy vehicles manufacturers are looking at this country, particularly in view of the robust economic growth. Makes sense for Iveco to set up shop here, and what better way to do so than with Tata, who have already signalled their intentions to bring in their Daewoo range of heavy vehicles...
Iveco is not tying up with Tata but has renewed its collaboration with Ashok Leyland. Also, IVECO is a conglomerate of a number of European CV manufacturers, including but not limited to FIAT. After the acquisition of Daewoo Commercial Vehicles and Hispano Correra(?), Tata does not need foreign partners (except perhaps for components like axles and gearboxes). Thanks to these acquisitions, Tata Motors now has international standard CV products in its portfolio. As a matter of fact, Tata has major plans of entering the international truck market and has been working on the all-new "truck of the future", also called the "Terminator" truck because of its resemblance to the truck used in the film "Terminator." Stile Bertone of Italy has been designing the cabs for the new truck series.
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