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Old 6th April 2007, 22:33   #46
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rks, seriously have you driven any car other than the santro? not a small drive but extensively?

Let me tell you on the highway, I found the Santro pretty unstable. It may be better than other small cars but seriously your description highlights body roll as well as understeer, and on public roads it is not at all advisable.

As far as my experience with the Santro goes, I actually found the rear very soft and wallowy bouncing over undulations and dips in the road.

I believe the Santro has failed in the elk test at something like 40kmph. I dont remember exact speed.

Generally, I brake before the corner and after the apex come accelerating out of it. The gear change to the lower gear is done on approach and upshift after completing the corner.

dude seriously be careful, you say you overinflate your tyres for higher top speed and try these cornering speeds on those overinflated tyres. thats asking for trouble.

with such good handling of the Santro as per rks' description it should be the F1 safety car from now on.

Last edited by Vid6639 : 6th April 2007 at 22:44.
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Old 6th April 2007, 22:47   #47
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Originally Posted by rks View Post
The Santro's relatively stiff rear suspension makes fast cornering possible. Somehow I have never felt that the Santro is about to topple, especially after I switched to tubeless and alloys.
Sorry rks for getting into this Santro issue. Looks like you're all for Santro. Must say, it's good to have this feeling along with brand/product loyalty.

Best thing for you to do is bring/take your car to a race track and show everybody what you mean.
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Old 6th April 2007, 23:05   #48
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Originally Posted by Rudra Sen View Post
Best thing for you to do is bring/take your car to a race track and show everybody what you mean.
Rudra, do you remember we drove through an excellent stretch of deserted twisty road near my place for photography purpose? The previous night we ripped through it on the Baleno. Next day morning on the Santro I had to slow down because of the body roll.

RKS, as you know I own both Santro and Baleno and drive them on similar roads. When it comes to high-speed stability, there is day and night difference between the two.
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Old 6th April 2007, 23:08   #49
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Originally Posted by Rudra Sen View Post
Sorry rks for getting into this Santro issue. Looks like you're all for Santro. Must say, it's good to have this feeling along with brand/product loyalty.

Best thing for you to do is bring/take your car to a race track and show everybody what you mean.
Rudraji, my guess is your amby will be better on the track than the Santro.
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Old 7th April 2007, 00:50   #50
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rks, seriously have you driven any car other than the santro? not a small drive but extensively?
Only the Maruti 800 (cross ply tyres, 95 model), Ambassador and old Fiat (60's model). Maruti is the only other modern car I have driven extensively (including one Banagalore-Mumbai-Bangalore trip). No comparison to Santro, of course.

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Let me tell you on the highway, I found the Santro pretty unstable. It may be better than other small cars but seriously your description highlights body roll as well as understeer, and on public roads it is not at all advisable.
There is no understeer at reasonable speeds -- it is just that I deliberately try to take corners diagonally in order to avoid straining the suspension. Where there is traffic (which is often these days) I can't do that, obviously. Regarding body roll, it wasn't there before. I read that with the greater grip that I now get with 5" alloys, the steering response will become more instant (especially since alloys are lighter too) and may make demands that the suspension cannot quite meet. But there is only a slight roll when cornering fast. Not too heavy a price to pay for better performance from the alloys.

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As far as my experience with the Santro goes, I actually found the rear very soft and wallowy bouncing over undulations and dips in the road.
That used to be very true with the 4" wheels -- if you go over small bumps while cornering hard you can literally feel the rear losing grip and the car becomes unstable. But with 5" wheels that has improved (though still not ideal, obviously).

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I believe the Santro has failed in the elk test at something like 40kmph. I dont remember exact speed.

Generally, I brake before the corner and after the apex come accelerating out of it. The gear change to the lower gear is done on approach and upshift after completing the corner.

dude seriously be careful, you say you overinflate your tyres for higher top speed and try these cornering speeds on those overinflated tyres. thats asking for trouble.

with such good handling of the Santro as per rks' description it should be the F1 safety car from now on.
Overinflating is not just for pick-up and top speed -- the main purpose is to get better handling over corners and improve tyre life. Together with wider alloys, I think now the tyres are overperforming already for my suspension, that is the problem. Imagine the way I flog these tyres on the Expressway week after week! Higher pressures will prolong the life of the tyres at the expense of losing some ride comfort over bumpy roads. Tyre rotation and checking alignment/balancing is also as important as setting tyre pressures accurately and I do all of these religiously.

@Samurai, of course, no doubt about it -- Baleno will corner much better. What I like about the Santro is the fantastic steering response. The power steering is superb and the car, being light, virtually dances to your tune even at good speeds. But surely you will feel safer in a Baleno, no doubt.

@Rudra Sir, you can always arrange for a T-BHPian to come with me when I return from Mumbai to Pune (virtually every week) and I will gladly demonstrate a fast drive. I would like to make a video, but don't how I can manage this alone. Race track may not be that interesting in a Santro, it is the zip through traffic. Great fun, don't know how to convey this unless you can send somebody over.

@Esteem_lover, vid6639, moralfibre and others, I appreciate your concern. I generally drive carefully. But ultimately it is all down to luck. When your number is due, you cannot do a thing about it. I fortunately don't spend too much time fretting, and am at peace with myself. I enjoy driving as long as someone up above lets me do it.

Last edited by rks : 7th April 2007 at 00:54.
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Old 7th April 2007, 02:55   #51
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Originally Posted by vid6639 View Post
with such good handling of the Santro as per rks' description it should be the F1 safety car from now on.
Why the safety car? Why not start a team with a couple of Santros?

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Originally Posted by rks View Post
There is no understeer at reasonable speeds.
Dude, either your reasonable speeds are 10 kmph, or your basic definition of understeer is faulty.

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Originally Posted by rks View Post
Overinflating is not just for pick-up and top speed -- the main purpose is to get better handling over corners and improve tyre life.
I have no idea what you're talking about. Overinflating leads to BAD handling, loss of grip, decreasing of contact patch, premature tread wear, and those are just off the top of my head. Also, overinflated tyres run a MUCH higher risk of blowouts and failures.

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Originally Posted by rks View Post
The power steering is superb and the car, being light, virtually dances to your tune even at good speeds.
Which is dangerous. Any halfwit knows you need a stiffer steering at high speeds, since the same movements are greatly amplified. A steering that feels the same at 20 kmph and 120 kmph is going to get you into a lot of trouble, especially if you take it dancing to your tune.

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Originally Posted by rks View Post
But ultimately it is all down to luck. When your number is due, you cannot do a thing about it.
With all due respect, it seems like you are maximising the chances of your number being called.

Though I must say, I have owned and (ab)used a Santro for years. A couple of members here will remember some very stupid things I have done in it. Then my driving style matured and I realised what I was doing wasn't quite safe. I hope with age, something similar happens in your case.

And I'm SURE Bridgestone S322 tyres are tubed, not tubeless.
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Old 7th April 2007, 08:52   #52
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Originally Posted by rks View Post
@Rudra Sir, you can always arrange for a T-BHPian to come with me when I return from Mumbai to Pune (virtually every week) and I will gladly demonstrate a fast drive. I would like to make a video, but don't how I can manage this alone. Race track may not be that interesting in a Santro, it is the zip through traffic. Great fun, don't know how to convey this unless you can send somebody over.

@Esteem_lover, vid6639, moralfibre and others, I appreciate your concern. I generally drive carefully. But ultimately it is all down to luck. When your number is due, you cannot do a thing about it. I fortunately don't spend too much time fretting, and am at peace with myself. I enjoy driving as long as someone up above lets me do it.
I call it off for you sir! Have a nice time going flat out on the expressway and may you break the 200 kmph barrier in the Santro. I managed to educate my cousin to take it easy on the Santro on the last drive I took with him on the expressway. He wanted to hit 180kmph in the Santro and now he doesn't dare to cross 100 kmph. (I know 180 is impossible for the Santro!)

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And I'm SURE Bridgestone S322 tyres are tubed, not tubeless.
I agree 100% with each statement you made except this. S322 are available in tubeless too. Came stock with my friends Honda City ZX.

Rks, if you see a Red car pulling over on the road shoulder on the expressway to make way for you to save your suspension, it would be me. I wouldn't want to be around your car anytime you do these speeds! Good luck.
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Old 7th April 2007, 11:41   #53
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Dude, either your reasonable speeds are 10 kmph, or your basic definition of understeer is faulty.
With tubeless tyres the car holds its lane quite well even when cornering at speed (which depends on the corner taken). But I do not want to exaggerate. Yesterday I did another trip and in the Lonawala ghats, the speeds do come down to 60-70 kmph on a few of the turns. Especially for the dangerous S-turns, 80 kmph would be pushing your luck -- not due to a limitation of the car, but because you exit virtually blindly and if there is any obstacle (stopped vehicle, accident/road block, stone) your goose would be cooked. This is generally true of the full Expressway -- advisable to be extra-cautious as you come out of curves and look out for obstacles.

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I have no idea what you're talking about. Overinflating leads to BAD handling, loss of grip, decreasing of contact patch, premature tread wear, and those are just off the top of my head. Also, overinflated tyres run a MUCH higher risk of blowouts and failures.
Bridgestone India recommends over-inflation by 5 psi for high speed driving in the section "Be a safe driver" and I have posted the link many times here. The correct pressure would depend on your vehicle, road conditions and driving style. While taking corners at speed, the sidewalls deform, reducing tyre life, increasing possibility of failure (burst) and the handling becomes poor. That is why increased pressure is advisable, given that I do the Expressway at high speeds. I have not found uneven tyre wear even after 12500 kms with 35 psi pressure. But this may not hold in general for other vehicles. In the monsoon season, the speeds will come down due to bad roads and slippery conditions. I plan to reduce the tyre presssure to 32-33 psi for better grip.

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Which is dangerous. Any halfwit knows you need a stiffer steering at high speeds, since the same movements are greatly amplified. A steering that feels the same at 20 kmph and 120 kmph is going to get you into a lot of trouble, especially if you take it dancing to your tune.
I am told that racing drivers prefer a sensitive steering at high speeds and in fact now hydraulic PS is preferred by some of them over electronic PS for this reason (apparently the newer hydraulic PS are light and do not consume much power). Shan2nu is the best person to contact here. Depends on your driving style and the car. I am happy with the hydaulic PS, which is fairly sensitive at higher speeds. You have to get used to it, though and not make any sudden/panic moves. It is just a question of knowing your car and what steering inputs are appropriate. To be fair, I have no idea how the electronic PS performs - I am told that at high speeds, there is virtually no power assist.

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With all due respect, it seems like you are maximising the chances of your number being called.

And I'm SURE Bridgestone S322 tyres are tubed, not tubeless.
As pointed out, S322 tubeless tyres are also avaialble and are much better. Let me emphasize that I was letting you guys know the *limits* of the Santro. Again I do not want to exaggerate. Most, if not all, of my trips are unevenful, even boring, and there is nothing even remotely close to a close call.

Last edited by rks : 7th April 2007 at 11:42.
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Old 7th April 2007, 13:43   #54
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U guys think too much about what car to get and what setup is right!!! It's just a track day, not a Grand Prix.

I realise that the Innova isn't an easy car to drive on track but sometimes, though driving a difficult car maynot get you a quick lap time, you can learn a lot from them.

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Old 7th April 2007, 13:48   #55
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wow Man SANTRO ROCKS!! @MCL..am waiting to take you on in your modded baleno vs..my err..borrowed Santro!!

The competetion is to start at some part of the city and end at te other part..no race track..just dragging !! .. oops bragging about the santro!!

The thread was apparently to highlight the stability of cars..and their ability to topple..but we seem to steer clearly off topic.

I doubt whether the ROAD - where all of us drive is an environment to test the limits of any vehicle.. Come to the track friends and try your limits..

It is just plain stupidity if you try to do something on the road and are proud to talk of the same as the limits of adhesion.. Roads are meant for sane motoring for the masses..in which we have to face insane cattle and the stray dog...

I do agree though that Santro is a nice car to have for city runabouts where parking is a problem or you have old people who find the ingress and exit easier than many cars..that apart..anything over 100 and either we start praying or the others facing us on road start praying!!
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Old 7th April 2007, 21:22   #56
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wow Man SANTRO ROCKS!! @MCL..am waiting to take you on in your modded baleno vs..my err..borrowed Santro!!

The competetion is to start at some part of the city and end at te other part..no race track..just dragging !! .. oops bragging about the santro!!
I wish to live ... Dragging you say ?? So when are we hiring jakkur ?? As for the street race i can run faster than my car .. If thats some solace ..
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Old 7th April 2007, 21:49   #57
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Guys, I feel that trying to make the ' SANTRO MAN ' see any sense about his car or the capabilities of that car is a plain waste of time . Lets just sit and pray for him that nothing untoward happens with the overinflated tyres and the crisp handling , and just think of him as a wasted talent .

i don't even know why we go off topic ... im sure we can't make him see sense in our views !! Rks @@ U ROCK .......... and maybe you may listen to Rudra ji and prove it all on track , so that we all may shut up .

cheers
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Old 7th April 2007, 23:07   #58
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Hey, gimme the santro, gimme the santro, i wanna race all you baleno babus & show you what korean technology is all about. who is ready?
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Old 7th April 2007, 23:16   #59
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Guys lets not take this Santro bit any further please. As you see, we are not really arriving at any conclusions here.
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Old 7th April 2007, 23:34   #60
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If it isnt a little too late to add to this discussion. I have taken my santro out on track (KMS), not a high speed test but a moderate speed one. Well, the car does understeer quite a bit but its predictable. But (even with modded suspension and stiffer chassis) i would not compare it with a sedan. There's something about santro's steering that im not comfortable with on the track. But, to its credit,it does brake well and in a straight line. I doubt it would topple, it would most likely go straight.
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