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Old 6th October 2008, 15:37   #1
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Exclamation Help needed Formula SAE Team Fateh

People,

Thapar University's team has been participating in Formula SAE since last year. This year I am a part of the engine and transmission team.

We have thought of going for these engine options

1. Honda CBR 600 F4i
2. Honda CBR 600RR

for the reason that most teams use this engine only and i think people in India can work on these engines.

Please correct me if im wrong.

I wanted some help from you guys

firstly,
are brand new engines with all electricals available abroad
secondly,
how good are reconditioned engine and can i get any fuel injected one in INDIA.
thirdly,
what price would they come for.
fourthly,
what is the procedure to import them.

i would be great if you guys help because you are my best resource available.

thanks
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Old 6th October 2008, 22:55   #2
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Don't you guys have the engine from last year? by the way best option is get a used bike and strip the engine and sell the rest for parts. Importing only the engine is a little hard and also the bike. but you can get 04 -07 engines for around 4.5-6 lacs. some one I know picked up an engine for that much 06 with all the electricals in Bangy. So you should be able to find such engines up in the north for a lil less.
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Old 6th October 2008, 23:09   #3
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Engines are available in UK for as little as GBP 500. Teams abroad have the luxury of spare engines, which are often sold for a steal. Customs formalities depend on how you work with them.

There is no parts support here for any of the engines. However you can order parts from online vendors, eg Bikebandit. They ship to India, albeit at a substantial cost.

If you are picking up Honda engines, absolutely make sure you get it packaged with the HISS module. If you intend on using the OEM ECU. You will not be able to use the stock electronics without the HISS module. No idea what other engines use for security.

Be wary of engines from crashed bikes. Rebuilds are expensive. Eg. 600RR piston rings alone cost around 9k. Add to that good labour. Which is actually priceless.

From hearsay, Kawasaki wiring is said to be the most complicated. I have no idea for myself.
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Old 8th October 2008, 01:21   #4
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dinar,

Last time we used an indian engine so we definetely need to upgrade. We want to for a fuel injected version as it is an investment and may be used in years to come.
The person who bought the engine what all electricals does it come along and who does the electricals as we are novice in this case.

ported_head,
As you told ,i need to have a hiss module. Is it a separte entity then ECU or is it built in. And if i use the key and HISS module from one bike and ECU from the other will they work(OEM ECU).

It would also be great if you could explain me in breif how does these electronics work.

As i have understood is, you need a key with the matching HISS module and then ECU and then just power it with battery.(i have no knowledge of bike electronics so please forgive me if ).

And other thing if got to know is that japnese bikes come with ECU language as japenese so will it affect me if i dont have to do any remapping.And if i have to then how is that possible.

thanks
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Old 8th October 2008, 09:56   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amannarwal View Post
ported_head,
As you told ,i need to have a hiss module. Is it a separte entity then ECU or is it built in. And if i use the key and HISS module from one bike and ECU from the other will they work(OEM ECU).

It would also be great if you could explain me in breif how does these electronics work.

As i have understood is, you need a key with the matching HISS module and then ECU and then just power it with battery.(i have no knowledge of bike electronics so please forgive me if ).

And other thing if got to know is that japnese bikes come with ECU language as japenese so will it affect me if i dont have to do any remapping.And if i have to then how is that possible.

thanks
You need the HISS module, ECU and the key from the same bike. Because the keys are RFID types. I think. Also, you will most likely also need the side stand switch, bank angle sensor, clutch switch. And most importantly, the display console. All preliminary checks take place through the display console.
Plus all engine sensors, and the auxillary emission systems if any. As they are all controlled by the ECU. Absence of those will most likely throw up error codes.

Once all these are in place, theoretically you should be able to just plug in the battery and start. You will not be able to make any mapping changes to the stock ECU anyway.
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Old 8th October 2008, 12:12   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amannarwal View Post
dinar,

Last time we used an indian engine so we definetely need to upgrade. We want to for a fuel injected version as it is an investment and may be used in years to come.
The person who bought the engine what all electricals does it come along and who does the electricals as we are novice in this case.

ported_head,
As you told ,i need to have a hiss module. Is it a separte entity then ECU or is it built in. And if i use the key and HISS module from one bike and ECU from the other will they work(OEM ECU).

It would also be great if you could explain me in breif how does these electronics work.

As i have understood is, you need a key with the matching HISS module and then ECU and then just power it with battery.(i have no knowledge of bike electronics so please forgive me if ).

And other thing if got to know is that japnese bikes come with ECU language as japenese so will it affect me if i dont have to do any remapping.And if i have to then how is that possible.

thanks
The engine was picked up from a 06 CBR 600, it came with the complete harness and the ecu and the keys.They actually picked up a totaled bike with the working engine in it.
Remapping the ECM will a bit difficult for you guys [judging by what you said]. I did not get the language part. do you mean that the remapping software comes in Japanese? Cause there are remapping software which are used else in the world and non of them are in Japanese.

Last edited by dinar : 8th October 2008 at 12:16.
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Old 8th October 2008, 12:59   #7
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can you guys help me find such an engine with electronics. im trying here in the north.
help is really apreciated.
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Old 23rd October 2008, 00:25   #8
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u cant get new F4i's. they just dont make them anymore.

keep in mind that maintainence of these engines is a very expensive affair. Cause the import costs are too high. (we have 2 F4i's, trust me on this one)

i suggest u look into other smaller engines. TU delft won FS Germany this year with a 450cc single cylinder engine !!

they can do that because their car and bodywork and everything else is just too light.
120kg dry !!!

what i am suggesting is that, look into the alternatives and then decide.

plus, fuel efficiency points have gone up this year. from 50 to 100.

which competition are you taking part in ?

there is one more issue, getting enough fresh charge into that 600cc engine through a 20mm restrictor and hoping to get good power is a tough job. (a dyno is an absolute must, added cost there)

plus, stock ECU with stock maps and that restrictor, you will end up being too rich. a custom ecu is a must. and to tune that ECU without a dyno ?? !!
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Old 4th January 2015, 12:01   #9
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Default Re: Help needed Formula SAE Team Fateh

I know this is a very old post, but my team, NITK Racing, and I are in a similar situation now.

I want to know the procedure for importing an engine or a complete bike from overseas. Is there a way to get it exempted from Import duties and taxes?

P.S. Mods, I didn't want to create a new thread as this one pretty much explains our situation.
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Old 31st January 2015, 10:49   #10
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Default Re: Help needed Formula SAE Team Fateh

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arvi95 View Post
I know this is a very old post, but my team, NITK Racing, and I are in a similar situation now.

I want to know the procedure for importing an engine or a complete bike from overseas. Is there a way to get it exempted from Import duties and taxes?

P.S. Mods, I didn't want to create a new thread as this one pretty much explains our situation.
Read your post before but got approved only recently.

I am currently a member in Team Fateh, Thapar Univerisity. In 2013 we were sponsored 2 KTM 510cc engines which were imported along with all the required sensors and other electronics. I think the customs were paid by us, was a fresh recruit then I am unaware about the exact procedure, so I'll ask our captain about the same. Feel free to contact us, the details our on our website.

Just out of curiosity, you are from NIT Kurukshetra or Karnatka ? I have a few friends in NIT Kurukshetra
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Old 4th February 2015, 13:00   #11
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Default Re: Help needed Formula SAE Team Fateh

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Originally Posted by Ashir View Post
Read your post before but got approved only recently.

I am currently a member in Team Fateh, Thapar Univerisity. In 2013 we were sponsored 2 KTM 510cc engines which were imported along with all the required sensors and other electronics. I think the customs were paid by us, was a fresh recruit then I am unaware about the exact procedure, so I'll ask our captain about the same. Feel free to contact us, the details our on our website.

Just out of curiosity, you are from NIT Kurukshetra or Karnatka ? I have a few friends in NIT Kurukshetra
Thanks for the info! I'm from NIT Karnataka. How do those KTM 510s perform? They're single cylinder units right? For now we've decided to stick on to our current cbr600rr engine.
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Old 4th February 2015, 13:41   #12
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Default Re: Help needed Formula SAE Team Fateh

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Originally Posted by Arvi95 View Post
Thanks for the info! I'm from NIT Karnataka. How do those KTM 510s perform? They're single cylinder units right? For now we've decided to stick on to our current cbr600rr engine.
We have not been able to actually get the on wheel performance yet. Hope we do this year. The manufacturing extends till last and there is very less time to test.

On dynamo, it does perform very well with 52 Nm torque at 7000 RPM, Top speed 120 kmph (practically 101 kmph) and acceleration 0-100 in 4-5 s (don't remember exactly)

It is single cylinder. We choose it just because of the vast difference in weight to power ratio. Not that we had choice when KTM agreed to sponsor us in 2013

CBR600 is widely accepted, especially among Indian teams and it is a wise choice, given very limited options of 600cc engines available in India. But many teams in Germany use KTM 390, only catch is that they customize the parts within the engine.

Being chassis designer, I find mounting single cylinder engine in frame more difficult, even being smaller in size, because of the effect of vibrations, less possibilities of taking engine as load bearing part, etc. Though the benefits are far better in terms of weight, easy handling & assembly, compact size.

Good Luck!
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Old 4th February 2015, 23:49   #13
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Default Re: Help needed Formula SAE Team Fateh

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Originally Posted by Ashir View Post
It is single cylinder. We choose it just because of the vast difference in weight to power ratio. Not that we had choice when KTM agreed to sponsor us in 2013

CBR600 is widely accepted, especially among Indian teams and it is a wise choice, given very limited options of 600cc engines available in India. But many teams in Germany use KTM 390, only catch is that they customize the parts within the engine.
We were considering the KTM 390 but since we were already used to the cbr600 engine, and due to the fact that it produces more power, we decided to stick with it for now. We do not have the money, skill or facilities easily available here in India to build our own custom engine parts.

All the best with your build!
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