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Old 14th July 2010, 14:26   #286
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Yep! thats my car!!

Cheers
Shrey
Then I guess you overtook me after exiting the back straight. Nice sound. What is it running?

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Old 14th July 2010, 14:53   #287
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There were two green OHC non-vtecs on the track?
Yup there were two green OHC non-vtecs but my fren hardly did some few laps.
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Old 14th July 2010, 15:03   #288
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A prepared esteem's entry speed at c1 is 140 kph. and does 160 front and back straights.

Also timings achieved are 2.01 to 2.09m in the hands of an expert.
ok not disputing that fact...that way prepared R15's do 2:00 flat without touching those speeds. Whatever class you look at the bikes are faster around chennai track, its probably the nature of the track and that part is understood. i'm trying to understand where the time is being lost and more specifically for the road cars that most of you take to the track. So far i'm seeing entry speed as one area but other areas i'm not clear about are how much of a factor is the driver, suspension, tires? what is the primary cause for loosing time?
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Old 14th July 2010, 15:26   #289
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Killer, any idea how long it takes to get from 80-125 in 3rd gear (or 4th?) in an R15? Cars normally do this in 3rd gear my wild guess is that the bike should be much faster here even though top speeds are comparable.
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Old 14th July 2010, 15:45   #290
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hmm not sure about the time taken in gear but as far as the stock r15 goes, acceleration is decent uptil 4th gear and then its very lethargic and crawls after that...so for example i exit onto the home straight in 5th at a speedo indicated 100kph and then only make it to ~125 by the MRF arch. We do those laptimes by carrying through as much speed as possible and dont come below 4th gear anywhere except the bridge complex...So basically acceleration on the stock bike is not much to speak of...but to answer your question i'm not sure head to head how it would stand up to the cars in 3rd/4th gear...

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Old 14th July 2010, 15:51   #291
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ok not disputing that fact...that way prepared R15's do 2:00 flat without touching those speeds. Whatever class you look at the bikes are faster around chennai track, its probably the nature of the track and that part is understood. i'm trying to understand where the time is being lost and more specifically for the road cars that most of you take to the track. So far i'm seeing entry speed as one area but other areas i'm not clear about are how much of a factor is the driver, suspension, tires? what is the primary cause for loosing time?
Hey Killer, nice to see your comments here. But i feel the difference is the expert driver and novice like us or i will say me. When i drive on track mostly its for fun not for setting lap times. Even when are in you doing a hot lap you might be blocked by someone in last turn or lose few second. Or you may braked late or too early and lose time there. I don't know about others but still i don't know the braking for corners, some corners i brake early and then have to shift down midway, or brake too late and then massive understeer. Also the grip and suspension matter most, the bike you are talking about is made to do this, the frame, tyres, suspension everything is tuned towards performance, i do not see any car on trackday that is so extreme towards performance.

Also owning to the tyres/suspension damage i don't not push my car to the limit, i will say i am mostly at 80% of the performace level. Even for the 1-2 laps if i push the car the lap can be lost due to other reasons.

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Originally Posted by Killer View Post
hmm not sure about the time taken in gear but as far as the stock r15 goes, acceleration is decent uptil 4th gear and then its very lethargic and crawls after that...so for example i exit onto the home straight in 5th at a speedo indicated 100kph and then only make it to ~125 by the MRF arch. We do those laptimes by carrying through as much speed as possible and dont come below 4th gear anywhere except the bridge complex...So basically acceleration on the stock bike is not much to speak of...but to answer your question i'm not sure head to head how it would stand up to the cars in 3rd/4th gear...
In my car IIRC its 90-95kmph(because i am around 6800-7200RPM at that point in 2nd gear and my car goes max of 96kmph in 2nd gear@7300RPM) coming out of that last corner and in the main straight its reaches 135-140kmph before i have to lift off for C1.

Last edited by Rahulkool : 14th July 2010 at 15:55.
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Old 14th July 2010, 16:08   #292
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Originally Posted by Killer View Post
i'm trying to understand where the time is being lost and more specifically for the road cars that most of you take to the track. So far i'm seeing entry speed as one area but other areas i'm not clear about are how much of a factor is the driver, suspension, tires? what is the primary cause for loosing time?
I understand this might be hard to grasp for a bike guy. I was one, now into cars for obvious reasons.

But the point here is most of the blokes are not in it for setting lap times or records. Burn some rubber, clutch, brake pads.

As a rule keep the ego in the pits and off the track.
When we had timing equipment for everyone last time, most blokes were timed and we bragged for a while. That's the end of it. Most of the chaps here do it for the "fun" not for setting time/speed records. So apart from the feeling there is very little motivation or need to analyze sector times or lap times.

I'm don't think you will find the answer here at this point.
But we can get to the bottom of it "if" we have proper equipment and time.
Then we can time a bike and car and see what it does corner by corner.
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Old 14th July 2010, 16:09   #293
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where are the pics guys ? thats the only way I can satiate myself and compensate to the loss that I have made by not participating in this meet...so bring on the pics guys
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Old 14th July 2010, 16:16   #294
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@yzfrj- True...i suppose i'd need to speak to a pro to figure this one out...its long plagued my mind. I think i'll talk to JD on this one...thanks for the inputs guys
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Old 14th July 2010, 17:04   #295
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where are the pics guys ? thats the only way I can satiate myself and compensate to the loss that I have made by not participating in this meet...so bring on the pics guys

You cant satiate yourself by seeing the pictures; the feel is absolutely different.

you missed another brilliant event, buddy

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Old 14th July 2010, 17:49   #296
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Killer: The braking points are different as well as the braking times. The R15's torque spread as well as power is way different than these cars. Hence the comparison wont yeild much results IMO.

The Power to weight as well!!
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Old 14th July 2010, 18:13   #297
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Nice one guys. Guess you all had great fun.

@Killer :
Well, I think there are many aspects involved here.
1.The Chennai track is more bike friendly than for cars. The sequence of corners allow a bike to hold on to the speed, but for a car(specially a FWD, understeering one), it will require lots more than that.

2. Bike is RWD and a car is FWD. And Understeering is the worst enemy on track.

3.Power to wt ratio. (Obviously). What was your laptime on the R1?

4.Downforce: Air Resistance. A bike is blessed with much lower air resistance than a car. MMST has always been a low downforce track due to the tightness of the circuit. As such, the cars cannot enjoy the grip advantage.

5.Brakes: A car's brakes are under more stress as it has to bring a bigger mass to rest. So, it gets heated faster and soon the driver loses confidence. The petal brakes on the bikes last longer than that. Moreover, I guess most bikers use engine braking on track more than the discs. Its just difficult to handle the momentum of the car just by engine braking.

6.Get a Premier Padmini churning out as much power as the Vtecs and on slicks.I am sure it will set a better lap time. The tight drive, shorter wheelbase and RWD would be the right combo.

These are my views.
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Old 14th July 2010, 18:20   #298
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6.Get a Premier Padmini churning out as much power as the Vtecs and on slicks.I am sure it will set a better lap time. The tight drive, shorter wheelbase and RWD would be the right combo.
+ 1 Aqualeo2040:

The Padmini has been a favorite for many a custom builder over the last decade.

But They are hot cars on the track and ruled Sholavaram and Sriperumbudur once.

Infact the nimble Dolphins [RWD] proved their might over the M800s [FWD] time and time again at Sriperumbudur!
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Old 14th July 2010, 18:31   #299
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@Killer: The answer you're looking for is not here. Comparing road cars to bikes (even a Group D) is not conclusive. Instead compare the all-out Super Saloons to all-out Group B and the cars now are around 2 secs a lap slower than the bikes (first time ever, thanks to the Group B pace this season). I don't have the comparative telemetry (yet) but from what I can conclude looking at their comparative pace around the track, the Group B R15s can carry higher speeds through the tighter sections ( like the transitions after C4 and the bridge complex left/right) while cars are can carry higher speeds through the fast corners (C1, Big D, Anand's corner) and hit higher top speeds on the straights (like just before C4).

Also the P to W, the Group B bikes should be making around 25bhp with a total weight of 130 kilos (including rider) which puts them around 190bhp/tonne while Esteems may be making around 130 horses with 750 kilos to lug. This translates to around 175bhp/tonne. This also means that bikes may get upto speeds faster between corners (not all-out top speeds) especially again in the tight sections- like the small straight from the left to before the right in the bridge complex and the C2-C3 straight. All this will add up eventually. All this may also dependent on gearing- but not so much so as pretty much both bikes and cars are able to maximise their gearing on the track.

And the thing you said about bikes being quicker everywhere- its not entirely true. Yes, the MMSC layout favours bikes upto a point- but the quickest thing around the track is still a 90s spec-F3 car (1:33), and even the MRF F-1600s have done 1:40 range times. Bikes I think the best is 1:43 by David Jones, and although it maybe improved upon, its very difficult to match an open-wheeler. Remember, the MRF has a piddly 120bhp with 450 kilos to hustle around.
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Old 14th July 2010, 18:44   #300
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These were the qualifying times during the MRFs if I am not mistaken.

F1600 Ashwin Sundar- 1:42
600 cc Superbikes- David Jones 1:45
Super Saloons- Bolisetty- 2:02.

So a prepared car was faster than a prepared bike.
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