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Old 14th July 2010, 19:03   #301
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Originally Posted by Gilead View Post
These were the qualifying times during the MRFs if I am not mistaken.

F1600 Ashwin Sundar- 1:42
600 cc Superbikes- David Jones 1:45
Super Saloons- Bolisetty- 2:02.

So a prepared car was faster than a prepared bike.
These are times from round one I think. The MRF car was going through setup changes every weekend whilst the foreign riders were learning the track and setup better and pushing limits every round. Hence, everyone found time thereafter and were much quicker by the third weekend. Ashwin did his best time in round two as far as I can remember (a late 1:40)

The Saloons didn't improve though, which were maxed out in the first round since it was familiar territory for both the car and the driver. But nevertheless, a open-wheeler's pace can't be compared to anything else really- the MRF car can go even quicker without many considerable changes.
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Old 14th July 2010, 20:11   #302
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Yes very fair points....combination of many things and when you think about it that way it makes sense. I stand corrected on the laptimes, forgot about those F3's hehe. (i wouldnt call em cars though )...but going back to my original query, u have to understand where i'm coming from ...cars are supposed to carry higher corner speeds...and then you have all these cars carrying good speeds on the straight so when the laptime doesnt add up a guy like me looks at that and goes "whats happening here"...anyways its clearly not a simple answer....i'd still like to know what the biggest bottle neck is on the road cars though..and how much time difference is there between a good trackday driver vs a pro
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Old 14th July 2010, 20:49   #303
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Originally Posted by Killer View Post
..and how much time difference is there between a good trackday driver vs a pro
This one is a little easy I guess. If you consider shan2nu to be a good trackday driver (2:15) and Bolisetty's time of 2:02 in a prepared car, there is a 13 sec gap.
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Old 14th July 2010, 21:45   #304
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Originally Posted by Killer View Post
cars are supposed to carry higher corner speeds...and then you have all these cars carrying good speeds on the straight so when the laptime doesnt add up a guy like me looks at that and goes "whats happening here"...anyways its clearly not a simple answer....i'd still like to know what the biggest bottle neck is on the road cars though..and how much time difference is there between a good trackday driver vs a pro
Have done a trackday where shifter karts were mixed up with superbikes. In the corners the bikes would brake heavily and slow down considerably whereas we would be flat out and pass them but on the straights the bikes would just fly by us like we were parked.

To answer your question, generally around a corner the cars are going to be faster (more so with downforce) but then you cannot compare an Indica to a ZZR250 either.

Compare laptimes between MotoGP and F1 for Silverstone 2010
  • Jorge Lorenzo (SPA) Fiat Yamaha Team 2'03.308
  • Sebastian Vettel (1st, Q3 - 1m 29.615s)
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Old 14th July 2010, 22:31   #305
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Originally Posted by Killer View Post
Yes very fair points....combination of many things and when you think about it that way it makes sense. I stand corrected on the laptimes, forgot about those F3's hehe. (i wouldnt call em cars though )...but going back to my original query, u have to understand where i'm coming from ...cars are supposed to carry higher corner speeds...and then you have all these cars carrying good speeds on the straight so when the laptime doesnt add up a guy like me looks at that and goes "whats happening here"...anyways its clearly not a simple answer....i'd still like to know what the biggest bottle neck is on the road cars though..and how much time difference is there between a good trackday driver vs a pro
Killer i think there was track special by overdrive recently in which the FORD fiesta 1.6s did 2:18-2:20 on a v-box with not so good thin stock tyres. The power to weight ratio of fiesta at 88.4 bhp/ton + thin street oriented tyres + 5 gears is no match for the R15's 130bhp/ton power to weight ratio + super sticky track oriented rubber (they are not skinny! )+ 6 gears . And 3 sec difference in lap times is not so bad.So considering all factors 4 wheels does help in cornering than 2 wheels just because of simple physics ( more grip) and you don't have to have balls of iron to do a fast lap in a car!
OT: wish i could do a 2:15(err at least get to drive my r15) on the track one day! Full racing leather must?

Last edited by amulu10 : 14th July 2010 at 22:34.
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Old 14th July 2010, 23:13   #306
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Headers
The braking points are different as well as the braking times.
Every vehicle(even if its the same model) has a different braking point at a corner.
Quote:
Originally Posted by killer
.i'd still like to know what the biggest bottle neck is on the road cars though..and how much time difference is there between a good trackday driver vs a pro
To answer this, you'll have to drive a car yourself or atleast be a passenger in a super saloon.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilead
This one is a little easy I guess. If you consider shan2nu to be a good trackday driver (2:15) and Bolisetty's time of 2:02 in a prepared car, there is a 13 sec gap.
Dude, Please make a fair comparison.
The RAD racing car that Sailesh drives weighs ~600+ kgs and has over a decade of development into it while Shan2nu was driving his 1 ton car with almost stock everything.
Quote:
Originally Posted by amulu10
you don't have to have balls of iron to do a fast lap in a car!
1.
I personally know of enough crashes on the track that I have a safety device in my head.*touchwood*
2. How fast are we talking? Post numbers. Not just 'fast'.
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Old 14th July 2010, 23:50   #307
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Originally Posted by rocky080 View Post
Nikhils posing with his shreded neova
Attachment 385949

This is what happens if you spin out and push your car over the limit.
Attachment 385950
Aaah.... Finally some good pics of my Neova

Quote:
Originally Posted by bottle View Post
Rahul cant afford trackdays after changing 12 sets of ES100's

AD07 was really good , lots and lots of grip , you can drive like a jackass and still be in control of the car. I found the grip too much especially in the rear it was causing car to understeer quite a bit, still not able to come to terms with that and for some reason car felt dog slow on the straights. I wish I had come to track a bit early and put in some more laps, had gone really late around 3pm and drove about 10 laps or so
You really should have come in earlier. Waaaaaaaaaaay more fun and better lap times even though lap times dont really count. It would have been WAAAAY more fun and you would have got used to the AD07s.



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Originally Posted by Gilead View Post
Those are some fantastic timings Nikhil. Missed catching up with you yesterday though I did see your car parked in the pits. I did a 2:41 on the stopwatch in a diesel car with the AC on.
Hey, you should have said hi! I didnt know you were in the Mondeo!

Quote:
Originally Posted by shazikon View Post
@Rahulkool, Nice photos dude..

@Nikhilb2008, How can AD07's be shreaded like that? is that due to manufacturing defect? That tire is built to handle abuse on tracks..
Haha. No manufacturing defect.

See, I had 4 spins. 2 of them at very high speed and completely sideways.

But this happened when I was in a corner pushing like mad.

I dont blame Yokohama. The NHC Vtec's suspension and steering is so bad, you have no idea what is going on.

In most corners I was oversteering and the wheels would be spinning away to glory. After close to 100 kms of torture, one of them gave way at a speed of around 100 kmph. The best part is, they didnt lose traction. The only reason I stopped was because Rahul and me heard a tapping noise and knew one tyre was gone.

Have you seen the Top Gear video where Jeremy Clarkson destroys the tyres of a Bentley by doing too much wheelspin? It is something similar. The steering has ZERO feedback and so most of the time I dont know what the tyres are doing and which side they are facing and how much grip they have. So, I'm at full throttle almost all the time through a corner.

I'm amazed that inspite of that, the NHC could still do this much. It is simply amazing what great tyres can do to a car.

2:21 is pretty much the fastest this car can do. Maybe a second faster or so. But this is pretty much close to the limit. Maybe someone like Shan2nu can wring another couple of seconds out of it, but that's it. Last time I was under the impression that since it was my first time, I could manage only 2:21 and maybe the second time I can do more. But now I have changed my opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rahulkool View Post
Thanks mate.

I don't know much about tyres but i guess there are many factors.

Nikhil drive like total maniac on track lol, you won't believe how much oversteer he had to do on the corners.
Tyres are done about 20-22k on road and then one earlier trackday.
Track surface is not good, its very rough.
Car's suspension also plays a role i guess, stiff suspension is better for these tyres.
The Car's suspension stops working the moment you turn into a corner. The tyres do ALL the work. No wonder this happened. As Nitrous mentioned a couple of times, I was driving on the sidewalls through the corners.

And the tyres have doe 25k + 2 trackdays. Each trackday is equal to 6-7k of normal road use!

Quote:
Originally Posted by brraj View Post
My review in points

- Was shocked to know our tyrewala Nikhil didnt know from which direction to loosen the nuts to replace his shredded neovas. Have to agree his saying that "nuts were too hot to handle" n please dont pour water on it .


He spun off the track few times and so was the result i guess.
@nikhil - upload the video.
I knew how to. But at that moment I was completely high on adrenaline and this meant that I wasnt thinking straight. This was proved by the fact that for some wierd reason, I wanted to fit the spare tyre at the back and the back tyre tro the front and wanted to use two jacks to lift the car.

I was also babbling incoherently!
I was just so blown away at that moment!
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Old 15th July 2010, 00:17   #308
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Originally Posted by Killer View Post
Yes very fair points....combination of many things and when you think about it that way it makes sense. I stand corrected on the laptimes, forgot about those F3's hehe. (i wouldnt call em cars though )...but going back to my original query, u have to understand where i'm coming from ...cars are supposed to carry higher corner speeds...and then you have all these cars carrying good speeds on the straight so when the laptime doesnt add up a guy like me looks at that and goes "whats happening here"...anyways its clearly not a simple answer....i'd still like to know what the biggest bottle neck is on the road cars though..and how much time difference is there between a good trackday driver vs a pro
The dynamics package (road tyres, suspension) and the driver's experience are the limiting points when a street car hits the racetrack. Something with half-decent power can do speeds in a straight line and doesn't demand much from the driver, but corners are a different story.

On the MMST lap, a good trackday driver should be around 5 secs a lap slower in a somewhat street spec car when compared to a pro. I say that because the gap tends to widen when a race car is in question as everyone can't maximise it as well as a street car. You can compare it to Group D and Group B- an average rider can be somewhat close to the top pro in Group D but the difference will increase on a more potent Group B as it requires higher levels of skill to maximise its higher potential.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilead View Post
This one is a little easy I guess. If you consider shan2nu to be a good trackday driver (2:15) and Bolisetty's time of 2:02 in a prepared car, there is a 13 sec gap.
This is no comparison really- its like comparing apples to an apple smoothie. Nowhere conclusive, and definitely not easy to guess.


Quote:
Originally Posted by amulu10 View Post
Killer i think there was track special by overdrive recently in which the FORD fiesta 1.6s did 2:18-2:20 on a v-box with not so good thin stock tyres. The power to weight ratio of fiesta at 88.4 bhp/ton + thin street oriented tyres + 5 gears is no match for the R15's 130bhp/ton power to weight ratio + super sticky track oriented rubber (they are not skinny! )+ 6 gears . And 3 sec difference in lap times is not so bad.So considering all factors 4 wheels does help in cornering than 2 wheels just because of simple physics ( more grip) and you don't have to have balls of iron to do a fast lap in a car!
OT: wish i could do a 2:15(err at least get to drive my r15) on the track one day! Full racing leather must?
I guess you missed something- how did you arrive at the 130/tonne ratio for the R15. Let me calculate again:

kerb weight of group D (stock spec, only lightened) R15- around 120 kilos
average rider weight- around 50 kilos.
power- around 17bhp
total weight- around 170 kilos.

So the power to weight is just about 100bhp/tonne subjective to massive fluctuations depending on rider weight.

Lap time- best 2:10, average around 2:13.

So there you have it. The bike justifies its power-to-weight advantage here, even though the car may have more grip. And its the 1.6S, so it has stiffer suspension and wider rubber compared to most street cars in the class. The ANHC on the other hand, has crappy rubber, sofa-spec suspension but still manages to clock timings very close to the better handling Fiesta S. In this case, it can be accounted towards the extra 20 horses or so that the Honda is endowed with.

So the business of comparing facts on the racetrack is pretty complex. Nothing can be taken one-dimensionally and dismissed at face value. And yeah, forget the balls factor, its the pros we are talking about here. Its equally difficult (or easy) to maximise a car or a bike and it becomes increasingly tougher as the machinery improves whilst the skill level of an average enthusiast tends to saturate after a point.

Last edited by doomsday : 15th July 2010 at 00:21.
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Old 15th July 2010, 08:24   #309
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@doomsday - useful info and makes sense, thanks.
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Old 15th July 2010, 10:28   #310
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The Car's suspension stops working the moment you turn into a corner. The tyres do ALL the work. No wonder this happened. As Nitrous mentioned a couple of times, I was driving on the sidewalls through the corners.
Exactly, when i was in passenger seat with you on few turns i could feel that you running on the sidewall of the tyre(from the noise and vibration you can feel inside).
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Old 15th July 2010, 11:54   #311
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Originally Posted by Nikhilb2008 View Post
The Car's suspension stops working the moment you turn into a corner. The tyres do ALL the work. No wonder this happened. As Nitrous mentioned a couple of times, I was driving on the sidewalls through the corners.
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Originally Posted by Rahulkool View Post
Exactly, when i was in passenger seat with you on few turns i could feel that you running on the sidewall of the tyre(from the noise and vibration you can feel inside).
I don't have a track day experience - but how do you know that you are driving on the sidewalls?

Is this because of wrong alloy / rim & tyre size? like a narrow tyre on a wider rim?

@ Rahul - vibrations can be due to irregular tarmac surface??

Last edited by planet_rocker : 15th July 2010 at 11:56.
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Old 15th July 2010, 11:58   #312
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@headers - ok i'm not a total noob hehe....still doesnt answer my question though. The cars seem to be touching pretty good speeds compared to the indian bikes...so out of corner acceleration / topspeed cant be an issue. I'm trying to understand where the bulk of time is being lost. I actually thought the cars would carry higher corner speeds, or is that not true for road setup cars?? too much roll from stock suspension? do you have to backoff a lot on entry? how much tire factor? how much driver factor? these are the answers i'm looking for.
The answer to this is the width of the car. Due to its bigger track, the driver has to wait till he is sure he can get the other side of the car around the cornering without going overboard.

On a bike, you only need to manage a track which is a few centimeters.

To understand this better, you will have to watch this video. Play it from the 3:50 mark. See how wide the Lambo's line is compared to the bike, when going around the cones. Even on a race track, this is happening to a certain extent but we fail to notice it. The wider the car, the wider the racing line.

So whatever grip advantage the car has over the bike, is being used to just get its wide body around corners.



Shan2nu

Last edited by Shan2nu : 15th July 2010 at 12:15.
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Old 15th July 2010, 14:06   #313
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Is this because of wrong alloy / rim & tyre size? like a narrow tyre on a wider rim?
No, it's due to the soft suspension and huge amounts of body roll inherent in an NHC on cornering. A driver will not even realize the sidewall may be touching tarmac because of near zero steering feedback as well.
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Old 15th July 2010, 15:08   #314
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Originally Posted by planet_rocker View Post
I don't have a track day experience - but how do you know that you are driving on the sidewalls?

Is this because of wrong alloy / rim & tyre size? like a narrow tyre on a wider rim?

@ Rahul - vibrations can be due to irregular tarmac surface??
I don't know how to explain it lol, but noise combined with vibration i can feel it

and with massive roll the whole weight of the car is on that wheel, rather than distributed on 4 wheels in the corners. Also massive oversteer means that the front tyres are at very odd angle with the movement of the car. and as a FWD these wheel also power the vehicle, result disaster when you pushing too hard.

Last edited by Rahulkool : 15th July 2010 at 15:10.
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Old 15th July 2010, 15:43   #315
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Also massive oversteer means that the front tyres are at very odd angle with the movement of the car. and as a FWD these wheel also power the vehicle, result disaster when you pushing too hard.
Are you sure you guys felt the NHC oversteer and not understeer!? The Mondeo has very good handling and even then it was understeering a bit. So I thought it would more in a car like the NHC.

Last edited by Gilead : 15th July 2010 at 15:45.
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