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Old 2nd November 2012, 23:19   #1
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Default EPA finds Hyundai & Kia overstated gas mileage ratings

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DETROIT (AP) — Hyundai and Kia overstated the gas mileage on 900,000 vehicles sold in the past three years, a discovery that could bring sanctions from the U.S. government and millions of dollars in reimbursements to car owners.

The inflated mileage was uncovered in an audit of test results by the Environmental Protection Agency, which ordered the Korean automakers to replace fuel economy stickers on the affected cars. The new window stickers will have figures that are one-to-six miles per gallon lower depending on the model, the agency said Friday.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/...decfd841e84503
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Old 3rd November 2012, 12:46   #2
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Default Hyundai (& Kia) retract mileage claims in US. Is is possible in India?

I came across an interesting piece of news in MSN-Autos:

http://editorial.autos.msn.com/blogs...b-834fcc60e6f4

Crux of the above news is as follows:

Quote:
The South Korean partners will lower the fuel-economy estimates on most of their 2012 and 2013 models, the Detroit News said. The move follows an investigation by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, which found discrepancies between its own test results and company figures... and will compensate owners for the faulty claims.
My POV here is that many car owners on TBHP have complained that their city mileage is too low as compared to ARAI numbers. Can something of what has happened in US can be replicated in India? What should the we as customers do?

Disclaimer:
I own a 2003 Santro Xing with CNG kit, which delivers 14+ kmpl on petrol & 22-23 kmpkg on CNG (both with AC), & am pretty satisfied with A.S.S. as well. In addition, I have got rubber rings (donuts) in my rear shocker springs (to compensate for weight of CNG cylinder at the rear) & ride is much better these days, as compared to popular notions.

Last edited by CARDEEP : 3rd November 2012 at 12:52.
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Old 3rd November 2012, 13:08   #3
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Default Re: Hyundai (& Kia) retract mileage claims in US. Is is possible in India?

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Originally Posted by CARDEEP View Post
I came across an interesting piece of news in MSN-Autos:

http://editorial.autos.msn.com/blogs...b-834fcc60e6f4

Crux of the above news is as follows:



My POV here is that many car owners on TBHP have complained that their city mileage is too low as compared to ARAI numbers. Can something of what has happened in US can be replicated in India? What should the we as customers do?

Disclaimer:
I own a 2003 Santro Xing with CNG kit, which delivers 14+ kmpl on petrol & 22-23 kmpkg on CNG (both with AC), & am pretty satisfied with A.S.S. as well. In addition, I have got rubber rings (donuts) in my rear shocker springs (to compensate for weight of CNG cylinder at the rear) & ride is much better these days, as compared to popular notions.
Mods: maybe you could merge this thread with the below:

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/intern...s-mileage.html

Hyundai has also started this site: https://hyundaimpginfo.com/ to compensate consumers! Can't in my wildest dream imagine this happenning in India!
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Old 3rd November 2012, 13:20   #4
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Default Re: Hyundai (& Kia) retract mileage claims in US. Is is possible in India?

Some auto manufacturer in India got away with stating a mileage of 36kmpl for one of their cars (it was apparently done during a manufacturer organized mileage run).

But figures lower than ARAI mileage cannot be contested possibly because ARAI mileages have a clear disclaimer that they are under standard ARAI test conditions. Possibly ARAI needs to make its testing procedures so that the mileage figures are more in-line with real world (like having a separate city and highway test both sufficiently realistic).

But I doubt ANY of this happening in India in the next 30-50 years atleast. We need to wait for the extremely corrupt and backward babus who control the country to die first (mods excuse for such harsh language).
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Old 3rd November 2012, 14:20   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MHG
Some auto manufacturer in India got away with stating a mileage of 36kmpl for one of their cars (it was apparently done during a manufacturer organized mileage run).

But figures lower than ARAI mileage cannot be contested possibly because ARAI mileages have a clear disclaimer that they are under standard ARAI test conditions. Possibly ARAI needs to make its testing procedures so that the mileage figures are more in-line with real world (like having a separate city and highway test both sufficiently realistic).

But I doubt ANY of this happening in India in the next 30-50 years atleast. We need to wait for the extremely corrupt and backward babus who control the country to die first (mods excuse for such harsh language).
ARAI figures do give a benchmark to compare cars (Even though they may not be the actual mileage figures), but still we can see manufacturers stating figures higher than their ARAI certification.

IMO- it should be made mandatory that manufacturers quote ONLY ARAI figures in their advertorials, and not figures from organised mileage runs.
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Old 3rd November 2012, 16:02   #6
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Default Re: Hyundai (& Kia) retract mileage claims in US. Is is possible in India?

IMO, the ARAI mileage figure has always been a bogus.

Look at the small capacity cars like the Alto K10 for which ARAI quotes 20.2 KMPL. MY colleague has an Alto K10 who not got more than 12-13KMPL in the city. He is a very light footed guy who was driving a M800 earlier and was enjoying an FE of over 16-17KMPL.

Similarly, for the Fiesta 1.6S that I had owned earlier... the ARAI numbers are just above 14KMPL and the best I have got in the city was 10.5 with a very light foot!

Coming to Hyundai, more than fuel effeciency we need someone to verify the engine output that they quote. Drive the Verna Fludic Petrol that claims to produce 123PS, I did spend quite some time searching for the horses or is it the lack of torque from the Hyundai petrols!? It never felt like a 123PS petrol car, the car I owned when I took the testdrive was a 1.6S that produces just above 100BHP.

Last edited by anachronix : 3rd November 2012 at 16:03.
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Old 3rd November 2012, 19:32   #7
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Default Re: Hyundai (& Kia) retract mileage claims in US. Is is possible in India?

Hyundai was caught overstating their engine HP in NorthAmerica in 2004. Here is the link http://www.autoblog.com/2004/06/22/h...power-lawsuit/
http://www.stuevesiegel.com/CM/Resul...dai-Owners.asp

I was interested in buying a Hyundai Elantra GT in 2005 and after reading this news changed my mind. I went with Mazda 3.
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Old 3rd November 2012, 20:22   #8
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Default Re: EPA finds Hyundai, Kia overstated gas mileage

That's really embarrassing for a multinational. The pace with which Hyundai made a comeback, wow. But with this news, it's depressing. How could they even do that? Are the top officials at Hyundai America involved in this?
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Old 4th November 2012, 12:32   #9
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Default Re: EPA finds Hyundai, Kia overstated gas mileage

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How did Hyundai-Kia get its estimated mileage ratings so wrong that it had to offer reimbursement to some 900,000 owners?

The truth is complicated, and it gets to the complexities of EPA testing.

Hyundai-Kia's Sung Hwan Cho told reporters this morning that it's "a very complex testing process." Cho heads the automaker's U.S. technical centers. He shed some light on the EPA tests, which lead to the city and highway fuel-economy figures on a new-car window sticker.
http://www.freep.com/article/20121103/BUSINESS01/121103009/How-the-Hyundai-Kia-mileage-rating-mistakes-happened?odyssey=nav|head

The article states it might be a case of "loose interpretation/ambiguity" of EPA guidelines.
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Old 4th November 2012, 13:28   #10
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Default Re: Hyundai (& Kia) retract mileage claims in US. Is is possible in India?

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Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
IMO, the ARAI mileage figure has always been a bogus.

Look at the small capacity cars like the Alto K10 for which ARAI quotes 20.2 KMPL. MY colleague has an Alto K10 who not got more than 12-13KMPL in the city. He is a very light footed guy who was driving a M800 earlier and was enjoying an FE of over 16-17KMPL.

Similarly, for the Fiesta 1.6S that I had owned earlier... the ARAI numbers are just above 14KMPL and the best I have got in the city was 10.5 with a very light foot!

Coming to Hyundai, more than fuel effeciency we need someone to verify the engine output that they quote. Drive the Verna Fludic Petrol that claims to produce 123PS, I did spend quite some time searching for the horses or is it the lack of torque from the Hyundai petrols!? It never felt like a 123PS petrol car, the car I owned when I took the testdrive was a 1.6S that produces just above 100BHP.
Milage figures do vary a lot based on the kind of driver, type of traffic, fuel quality, ambient temperature, loading of the car etc etc. So if your friend gets 12kmpl on the Alto versus 17kmpl on the 800, he may not be using the right gear to extract economy on the Alto. Understanding the power/torque versus rpm for each gear, helps in extracting max performance or max economy. Toddling along in 5th gear at 40kmph may give best output in Car A but worst output in car B for example.
I always got 17-18kmpl in the city and about 20kmpl on highways on my Alto for the 7 years I owned her. And this milage was on tankful to tankful calculation, with A/C on 100%. Ofcourse the car was driven with max 1-2 persons on board.


Regarding feeling of horsepower, its all about our perception. A car which is geared short may feel very peppy during acceleration compared to a taller geared car. Likewise a taller geared car has a good top end, compared to a shorter geared one.
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Old 5th November 2012, 12:16   #11
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Default Re: EPA finds Hyundai & Kia overstated gas mileage ratings

Hyundai-Kia admits mpg ratings were bogus!

In the conference call on Friday, Hyundai and Kia executives apologized and acknowledged the inaccuracies. "We are extremely sorry about these errors," Krafcik said.

Under Hyundai's and Kia's proposed remedy, owners with mislabeled vehicles will bring them to dealerships for odometer checks. Dealers will forward the readings to the automaker, which will reimburse owners with debit cards for the extra gasoline they purchased.

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Old 6th November 2012, 00:18   #12
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Mileage depends on lot of factors, in reality it is hard to acheieve ARAI figures, but I have seen Alto k10 giving 18+. There was also a term called Indian driving cycle, IDC, which is actual you see, but that is no more used. Arai figures actually allow us to compare apple to apple and are the most apt. As for misleading facts, manufacturers have done that in India too, no big deal.
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Old 6th November 2012, 08:50   #13
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Default Re: Hyundai (& Kia) retract mileage claims in US. Is is possible in India?

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Originally Posted by apachelongbow View Post
Milage figures do vary a lot based on the kind of driver, type of traffic, fuel quality, ambient temperature, loading of the car etc etc. So if your friend gets 12kmpl on the Alto versus 17kmpl on the 800, he may not be using the right gear to extract economy on the Alto. Understanding the power/torque versus rpm for each gear, helps in extracting max performance or max economy. Toddling along in 5th gear at 40kmph may give best output in Car A but worst output in car B for example.
I always got 17-18kmpl in the city and about 20kmpl on highways on my Alto for the 7 years I owned her. And this milage was on tankful to tankful calculation, with A/C on 100%. Ofcourse the car was driven with max 1-2 persons on board.
Agree, there are lot of factors to it. But look at the variation from the ARAI figure of 20.2 to 12 - 13KMPL. Even otherwise, a low tech engine could help the same driver with a over 16KMPL FE and the new high tech which is supposedly fuel effecient returns 4-5KMPL less?


Quote:
Regarding feeling of horsepower, its all about our perception. A car which is geared short may feel very peppy during acceleration compared to a taller geared car. Likewise a taller geared car has a good top end, compared to a shorter geared one.
Agree again, horsepower is only a feeling which gets stronger with torque

The Fludic TD I took was in a long 2KM stretch (the road from TIDEL Park to Madhya Kailash in Chennai) gave the car a proper sprint revving upto 6K RPM in most gears. I can see the tacho needle climbing, but the car was relatively doing slower speeds compared to my Fiesta 1.6 which is about 20 horses less. There was no noticable power band in any of the RPM range!
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Old 6th November 2012, 08:59   #14
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Default Re: Hyundai (& Kia) retract mileage claims in US. Is is possible in India?

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Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
Agree, there are lot of factors to it. But look at the variation from the ARAI figure of 20.2 to 12 - 13KMPL. Even otherwise, a low tech engine could help the same driver with a over 16KMPL FE and the new high tech which is supposedly fuel effecient returns 4-5KMPL less?




Agree again, horsepower is only a feeling which gets stronger with torque

The Fludic TD I took was in a long 2KM stretch (the road from TIDEL Park to Madhya Kailash in Chennai) gave the car a proper sprint revving upto 6K RPM in most gears. I can see the tacho needle climbing, but the car was relatively doing slower speeds compared to my Fiesta 1.6 which is about 20 horses less. There was no noticable power band in any of the RPM range!
With small capacity engines such as the alto engine, its already producing power in the upper reaches of its power band. For example if peak torque is produced at 4000 rpm and peak power at 5500 rpm the car might be most economical when running around 3.5k rpm in all gears, however if it runs at say even 3k rpm or 4k rpm in all gears, there might be either lugging or over straining of the engine, resulting in very reduced fuel economy.
Larger capacity engines are more forgiving to being driven out of their power band.

Perception of power is the feeling of kick in the back, which may not translate into real performance. Example like the one you made above or due to the horrible turbo lag in the swift engines gives us the feeling we r in a powerful car getting a kick every time we floor it.
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Old 6th November 2012, 19:44   #15
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Default Re: EPA finds Hyundai & Kia overstated gas mileage ratings

So, it is not only in India Hyundai is making false mileage figures! All over the world they are lying about their mileage, and now caught! When they will be caught in India for their lies about i10 and i20 mileage claims?

Once a thief, always a thief!
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