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Old 22nd January 2013, 17:57   #16
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Default Re: Study : Germans make the least reliable engines

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Originally Posted by Omtoatom View Post
These folks are ill at ease with electronics - given a choice they'd rather put in more under the hood than inside the cabin. Just how their psyche is.
Are you kidding me? Ever heard of companies like Bosch? They have been at forefront of developing just about every electronic gadget found in modern cars. From electronic controlled injection to ESP etc.

My 1986 Alfa Romeo Spider has a Bosch L-tronic injection system. Still working today, and it can still be serviced today, and I can still get parts! By Bosch! I agree with all you say about the Germans, but on electronics, no absolutely not. These guys know everything about electronics there is to know and invented a lot of it themselves.

The old BMW 6 and 7 series had a staggering 65 Computing modules on board. That was 5 years ago!

Just about half the racing world relies on Bosch systems and products.

I would trust German electronics above anything else for all the reasons you point out.

By the way, although the internet is riff with stories about electronics playing up badly in modern cars, the truth is that today's car electronics are extremely reliable. However, in case something does go wrong you need different skill sets, competence and tools to diagnose and fix the problem.

Jeroen
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Old 22nd January 2013, 18:07   #17
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Default Re: Study : Germans make the least reliable engines

Interesting, if electronics are so reliable then why do they fail (more often compared to the mechanicals) when used in an automobile? Any thoughts?

Spike
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Old 22nd January 2013, 19:03   #18
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Default Re: Study : Germans make the least reliable engines

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Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR View Post
Interesting, if electronics are so reliable then why do they fail (more often compared to the mechanicals) when used in an automobile? Any thoughts?

Spike
Because people think European cars are robust, European cars get abused more?
AND
Because, people think Japanese cars are not so strong, Japanese cars receive better care / less abuse?

People who own(ed) both could comment!
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Old 22nd January 2013, 20:58   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR View Post
Interesting, if electronics are so reliable then why do they fail (more often compared to the mechanicals) when used in an automobile? Any thoughts?

Spike
Im not convinced they fail that often at all. In fact in all of my years on the Alfa Technical committee driving ten of thousands of kilometers with a couple of dozens Alfa's I can't recall a single electronic issue. I have taken just about every component of a car apart and or replaced it. I have yet to replace my first ECU.

I don't want to get caught up in semantics, but I'd say that in 99% of all supposedly electronic issues, it is actually not an electronic problem at all. Nearly always something very simple, like a bad connector, a faulty sensor, poor battery condition and such. Some cars do suffer from faults in the wire looms, especially after 10-15 years (e.g. my own Jaguar XJR is prone to this, but the 6 or 8 on board processors typically are fine.)

It's just poor diagnostics and it's easy to blame something that is not understood.

There is no doubt in my mind that in general cars have become more reliable and require less maintenance. Exceptions aside.

We have a lot of electronics in modern cars and obviously there will be issues, and problems. But we have forgotten some of the issues that we used to have.
Carburetors, especially on high performance cars are notoriously temperamental and difficult to properly adjust and maintain. Remember how difficult it could be to start a carburetor car, with manual choke after a cold wet spell. These days electronics and a whole host of other new gadgets under the hood have made starting an engine a none issue. But if for some reason it does't start the electronics get blamed!

Jeroen

Quote:
Originally Posted by babu.sundaram View Post
Because people think European cars are robust, European cars get abused more?
AND
Because, people think Japanese cars are not so strong, Japanese cars receive better care / less abuse?
I doubt it. I've owned European, American and the odd Japanese (Datsun 120A, many years ago). Doesn't make a blind bit of difference to me. I look after all my cars.

I'd say the only difference is who owns the car; If you paid for it yourself, most people will take relative good care of it. But if the company pays for it, i.e. company car, it becomes a very different matter. All of sudden people don't feel responsible and couldn't care less because somebody else picks up the bill.
Talk to leasing companies and they'll tell you that for instance tires on company cars last half the mileage as the average on privately owned cars.

Bit of anecdote on the Datsun. I was given this car by a friend of mine, when we lived in the UK in the early eighties. He was moving abroad and left me the Datsun. I had a beautiful Fiat 132 at the time and my wife a Talbot Samba. The Datsun was an old banger to start with, but still worked and was extremely reliable. So we kept it as a third car. We used it to take our trash to the tips, lend it to friends who came to stay etc.

After a few years we moved out of the UK and I decided to get rid of it. Couldn't find any seller, so I took it to a scrap yard. They wouldn't take it either. They told me, "these Datsun are so reliable, they never break down, there is virtually no demand for it's parts". Went to several scrap yard, with the same result. In the end I PAID THEM 50UKP to keep my car! Even in those days Japanese car had an awesome reputation for reliability!

Jeroen

Last edited by Technocrat : 22nd January 2013 at 23:56.
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Old 22nd January 2013, 21:20   #20
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Default Re: Study : Germans make the least reliable engines

The Power steering, Climate Control , Power Windows , ABS Unit may be of Bosch etc but the real chip which does the job is made by Danfoss, Omron , Mitsubishi , NEC etc again most are not germans.
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Old 22nd January 2013, 21:33   #21
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Default Re: Study : Germans make the least reliable engines

Quote:
Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR View Post
Interesting, if electronics are so reliable then why do they fail (more often compared to the mechanicals) when used in an automobile? Any thoughts?

Spike
I think its the integration. The integration of electronic command with mechanical activity. And I am just thinking aloud..the mindset of digital (electronic engineer) vs. analog (mechanical engineer).
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Old 22nd January 2013, 21:50   #22
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Default Re: Study : Germans make the least reliable engines

This same Warranty Direct rated Skoda as the top manufacturer in 2006, content from Wikipedia:

Quote:
In 2006, Warranty Direct, a UK-based provider of mechanical warranties for used cars, rated Škoda the top manufacturer (above Mazda and Honda), while Audi came seventh from bottom. The Octavia specifically had a reliability index of 32.74 (lower being more reliable), while the Golf produced over the same period was 87.28, and the Audi A3 99.43.
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Old 23rd January 2013, 10:05   #23
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Default Re: Study : Germans make the least reliable engines

Very interesting. We have a lot of passionate and very experienced petrol heads as always we expect from Team-BHP.

So basically most people agree that German 'engines' are marred by complicated electronics or electronic related or supportive components. The cars themselves are solid and stable. But the Japs just are miles ahead in overall reliability especially electronics.

And of course usage is a very important factor too. But I was initially surprised when Anshuman said that Skoda came 1st in the same study in 2006. But then because of the Octavia! And that car (not the later Octavia / Laura in India) has been proved many times over as tremendously reliable. There are people paying huge amounts for old used Octavia Tdi's even now. One of my favourite cars.

Great! Getting to learn a lot. Let the discussions continue.
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Old 23rd January 2013, 11:59   #24
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Default Re: Study : Germans make the least reliable engines

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Originally Posted by rrsteer View Post
I think its the integration. The integration of electronic command with mechanical activity. And I am just thinking aloud..the mindset of digital (electronic engineer) vs. analog (mechanical engineer).
You're correct in that these are very different competence domains. So in all industries where combining mechanical and electronics/computers is relevant you will see they have dedicated resources with the appropiate skill sets. Don't know about India, but in Europe universities and colleges offer courses, MSC and Bsc, on these sort of topics.

My next door neighbour in the Netherlands teaches automotive technology at a technical college in Rotterdam. And this is what he teaches his students. Overall, end to end system engineering. Say for example electronic fuel injection. Requires knowledge on how an engine works, chemical processes around combustion, injection, fluid dynamics, themo dynamics, mechanical engineering and the control system, including all the various sensors.

You see the exact same thing in for instance the aviation industry and petrol industry.

I have a Bsc in Naval Engineering. Four year of training. And approxiametley 25% of the time spent on electronics, system and automation. Even thirty years ago, enginerooms were becoming very much controlled by electronics.

So having an indepth understanding on how a 25000 HP Marine Diesel is controlled by a couple of boxes of electronics, dozens and dozens of sensors, several computers and miles of wiring is a given in many industries for many years.

And all these industries will have appropiate skilled system engineers that can work overall on systems end to end. It's just a different skillset. Bosch produces excellent comprehensive trainingmaterials for all their systems for instance. Lot of them floating around on Ebay. I own all the manufacturer workshop manuals of all my cars and I try and get all the system manuals and materials of all the various components. (So I've got quite a few Bosch manuals in my collection especially on the older injection system you will find in classic cars from the eighties).

Bringing mechanical and electrical engineering together isn't rocket science or black magic. I've always enjoyed it and there is tonnes of stuff available if you want to submerge yourself in building a really comprehensive insight in how a modern car works, including electronics.
Jeroen

Last edited by Jeroen : 23rd January 2013 at 12:16.
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Old 1st February 2013, 08:37   #25
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Default Engine Reliability - BMW, Audi, VW among the least reliable!

So says an UK-based research company, Warranty Direct, after conducting a study of 50,000 live consumer products.

Among the most reliable ones, Honda, Toyota & Mercedes-Benz top the list.

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SOURCE - http://www.rushlane.com/bmw-and-audi...t-1263792.html
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Old 1st February 2013, 09:42   #26
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Default Re: Engine Reliability - BMW, Audi, VW among the least reliable!

That 2 famous German marques are less reliable than the Japs is not surprising to me given the feedback on TBHP. Mercedes Benz is a nice surprise.
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Old 1st February 2013, 09:46   #27
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Default Re: Engine Reliability - BMW, Audi, VW among the least reliable!

Nice research and statistics. If I read the numbers correctly Honda seems to be twice as reliable as Toyota from this researched audience.
And yes Mercedes Benz is a surprise.
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Old 1st February 2013, 10:07   #28
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Default Re: Engine Reliability - BMW, Audi, VW among the least reliable!

It's mentioned somewhere that these figures are based on warranty claims than customer feedback. So the actual numbers can be different. JDPower outputs can be more accurate.
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Old 1st February 2013, 10:28   #29
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Default Re: Engine Reliability - BMW, Audi, VW among the least reliable!

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Nice research and statistics. If I read the numbers correctly Honda seems to be twice as reliable as Toyota from this researched audience.
And yes Mercedes Benz is a surprise.
Twisting the words, can we say - Toyota engines are half as reliable as Honda engines ;-)

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Originally Posted by R2D2 View Post
You may want to ask the OP this question. But this is the 1st instance of this topic for me.

So, which thread are you referring to?
Here is the thread, the report is by Warranty Direct - http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/intern...e-engines.html (Study : Germans make the least reliable engines)
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Old 1st February 2013, 10:38   #30
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Default Re: Engine Reliability - BMW, Audi, VW among the least reliable!

I do not agree with the survey about Mercedes Benz. So many reports say the trio are not that reliable. So, this survey posted here is definitely not true about benz. Regarding honda and toyota they are correct and it is known world over that the japanese are the most reliable. I would say the older mercs like W124 are most reliable but not the newer ones.
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