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Old 3rd October 2013, 17:51   #76
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Default Re: New York: Road Rage / Accident between Range Rover & Bikers

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Originally Posted by AbhishekB86 View Post
I am sorry humyum except the last line in your post everything else made sense. Funny but it reminds me of how things work in our country. Everyone sides with the poor biker/poor auto wala/poor cycle wala even if they bang into your vehicle. Why? Because they are more prone to injuries. So should this not be a reason for them to be more responsible for their own safety?
.
I agree, I completely agree, I was just talking with reference to the situation. The bikers would have not expected him to shoot at them like a missile and thae RR guy did a wrong thing by gunning it. Should have just have taken it easy in such a way that he would have escaped too at the same time not hurt anyone or did not look like an intent to hurt. I mean even at Idle Rpms the Range rover will not stall even if a bike comes in the middle and it has to climb over it. Why the Fast the Furious push ? Seemed too dangerous. The bikers were completely at fault too and I admit that too.
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Old 3rd October 2013, 18:11   #77
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Default Re: New York: Road Rage / Accident between Range Rover & Bikers

Never bring a bike to Range Rover fight.
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Old 3rd October 2013, 18:12   #78
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Default Re: New York: Road Rage / Accident between Range Rover & Bikers

If other videos of the same biker group on Youtube are anything to go by, we can safely exclude them from the 'responsible' bikers category.

They have a history of causing nuisance and harassing other road-users. I'm more than happy to give someone the benefit of doubt, and definitely DO NOT intend bodily harm on anyone, but the incident (and their history of such acts) has 'had it coming to them' written all over it.

I'm not a biker personally, but have a close friend who is an avid tourer, and his reaction to this piece of news is unmentionable on this forum verbatim, though suffices to say it wasn't favorable to the bikers.
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Old 3rd October 2013, 18:25   #79
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Default Re: New York: Road Rage / Accident between Range Rover & Bikers

What happened to the biker that got run over was not done intentionally by the RR guy. In law, "intent" is a major factor in deciding the magnitude of the crime and the subsequent punishment. Obviously the NY DA does not think there was any intentional harm done to the biker.

But despite all that, no one can deny that the best way to handle this situation would have been to not let that situation happen in the first place. The altercation must have started before the video started capturing it. And THAT starting point is where the RR guy should have backed down, even if it meant taking an early exit from the highway. This is what the driver's handbook also states when you are being tailgated. But after crossing the point of no return, the RR guy was left with no option but to do what he did to ensure his and his family's safety.
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Old 3rd October 2013, 18:33   #80
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Default Re: New York: Road Rage / Accident between Range Rover & Bikers

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Originally Posted by amitoj View Post
What happened to the biker that got run over was not done intentionally by the RR guy. In law, "intent" is a major factor in deciding the magnitude of the crime and the subsequent punishment. Obviously the NY DA does not think there was any intentional harm done to the biker.

But despite all that, no one can deny that the best way to handle this situation would have been to not let that situation happen in the first place. The altercation must have started before the video started capturing it. And THAT starting point is where the RR guy should have backed down, even if it meant taking an early exit from the highway. This is what the driver's handbook also states when you are being tailgated. But after crossing the point of no return, the RR guy was left with no option but to do what he did to ensure his and his family's safety.
I have to agree with you on the point that the best way to avoid trouble is to not cause it, but it looks dubious that the SUV driver caused anything at all.

There are reported eyewitness accounts that the bikers box you in so badly that it's impossible to take an exit RAMP (or sometimes even change lanes) without causing an accident. Though I wouldn't believe such statements at face value, they aren't difficult to believe either.

There's another video of the same group on Youtube where they attack and damage a car at an intersection just because it was blocking their way while they were jumping a RED.

I actually pity the other responsible bikers out on the road, who get tarred with the same brush because of a few bad ones/groups in the community. Biking is a way of life for some people, and they don't deserve to be thrown in the same basket as these guys.

Last edited by Chetan_Rao : 3rd October 2013 at 18:44.
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Old 3rd October 2013, 18:53   #81
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Default Re: New York: Road Rage / Accident between Range Rover & Bikers

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Originally Posted by Chetan_Rao View Post
I have to agree with you on the point that the best way to avoid trouble is to not cause it, but it looks dubious that the SUV driver caused anything at all.
See this is the big unknown, right? What happened before the video started? Look at it from the bikers' point of view. They want to zoom down the streets, scare people, intimidate them with their antics (as is obvious from other videos) and generally behave like a bunch of goons. Maybe its pack mentality or whatever. Best thing to do in such cases is to not even look at them, forget honking or hand gestures. Of course there are scenarios where you can't help but get involved, for example you get rear ended by a biker and they all gang up on you.

All I am saying is that the Range Rover guy maybe had a few options available before he got brake checked. But once he got brake checked, stopped and got helmets thrown at him and tires slashed, he had no other option left except to do what he did.

The lesson in it for all of us should be to not reach that point at all, not that if you get to that point then do what he did. And I think this is what Phamilyman is also trying to say and I do agree with him.
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Old 3rd October 2013, 19:42   #82
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Default Re: New York: Road Rage / Accident between Range Rover & Bikers

I thought it was 'some' bikers. That is like a swarm of Bees. Not sure what made them converge on the RR.
Hilarious to me is after 6 minutes, there is no Police anywhere. Couldn't they have asked him to drive to a particular place on the freeway itself? No helicopters? come on its USA. Missed a big live TV event
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Old 3rd October 2013, 20:20   #83
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Default Re: New York: Road Rage / Accident between Range Rover & Bikers

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Originally Posted by amitoj View Post
See this is the big unknown, right? What happened before the video started? Look at it from the bikers' point of view. They want to zoom down the streets, scare people, intimidate them with their antics (as is obvious from other videos) and generally behave like a bunch of goons. Maybe its pack mentality or whatever. Best thing to do in such cases is to not even look at them, forget honking or hand gestures. Of course there are scenarios where you can't help but get involved, for example you get rear ended by a biker and they all gang up on you.

All I am saying is that the Range Rover guy maybe had a few options available before he got brake checked. But once he got brake checked, stopped and got helmets thrown at him and tires slashed, he had no other option left except to do what he did.

The lesson in it for all of us should be to not reach that point at all, not that if you get to that point then do what he did. And I think this is what Phamilyman is also trying to say and I do agree with him.
Definitely agree with you, but it does reflect poorly on a society/country if one has to think twice before using a public resource lawfully in a first-world country.

As for Phamilyman's comments, I'm in complete agreement that injuring someone with 'intent' is wrong.

When threatened with harm like in this scenario, the best course of action is to get away with as little damage to yourself/others, if staying put and waiting for the authorities is no longer a viable option, which I believe is exactly what the SUV driver was trying to do, from at least what's visible on the video.

If the person had a history of road rage or violent altercations on-road, I'm sure the authorities would've considered that while framing charges. That he wasn't charged with anything speaks for itself.

All that being said, I'm basing my opinion on available info, and if evidence comes up to suggest otherwise, I'm open to change my stand.
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Old 3rd October 2013, 20:54   #84
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Default Re: New York: Road Rage / Accident between Range Rover & Bikers

Some Good news finally! Bikers are brought to court and charged!



http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2013/10/...-due-in-court/
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Old 3rd October 2013, 21:05   #85
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Default Re: New York: Road Rage / Accident between Range Rover & Bikers

I was wondering why the highway was so empty while the other direction had so much traffic. I read somewhere that it was stated on national news that the bikers were stopping traffic from entering the highway so that they could carry on with their stunts.

How one group can tarnish the image of a whole community.
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Old 3rd October 2013, 21:12   #86
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Default Re: New York: Road Rage / Accident between Range Rover & Bikers

Am I the only guy who thinks that it is COMPLETELY the driver's fault.

First he rear ends a biker, then when they stop, (NOTE: Nobody attacked or approached the RR guy yet), he starts and runs over the bike)

And then he continues to run.

Imagine Team-BHP bikers having a general G2G and then some SUV driver runs into the back of one of us.
Wouldnt we, the brotherhood protect him. Yes we would! And thats what happened. They stopped to check if he was okey.
But the SUV driver, he almost run over a few of the bikes, and the bikers.
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Old 3rd October 2013, 21:31   #87
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Default Re: New York: Road Rage / Accident between Range Rover & Bikers

The NYPD hasn't officially ruled out charging the SUV driver yet.

http://www.ibtimes.com/bikers-attack...deo-goes-viral

Also reported is that the injured biker never had a valid driver's license or a motorcycle license, and was actually barred from driving until 2017 in his home state of Massachusetts due to his history of traffic offences and unpaid fines.

http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/201...BaL/story.html
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Old 3rd October 2013, 22:11   #88
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Default Re: New York: Road Rage / Accident between Range Rover & Bikers

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Originally Posted by phamilyman View Post
Indeed - Agree with you 99% but if the RRdriver had his wits about him - he could've stopped in time. I mean come on - no biker is stupid that he will just brake so hard assuming that someone in a 3 ton truck will brake even harder and not run him over? That is why no one later got in front of him!! Hello - they may have been fighting but the biker wasnt being suicidal even when they were really pissed and were trying to hurt him BAD!

I can't see your point here. Not every guy behind the wheel has race-car driver reflexes and similarly not every guy on 2 wheels is responsible enough to keep an eye on other road users while executing his manoeuvres. So, yes the biker, even though not suicidal did a stupid move by braking so hard and the RR driver followed but couldn't stop in time thereby clipping him unintentionally.

Please see above. the video does not seem to support as if the biker did panic braking and the car couldn't stop despite his best efforts. Seems to be far from it - the speeds don't look that high.

That wasn't panic braking at all. It was intentional braking, a taunt; to slow the RR down. Maybe he wanted to pull off a wheelie.

Would you RUN OVER (i.e be ready to kill / maim) folks because of a misunderstanding or some stupid bravado? PS: You dont have the full footage so we DONT know where/how it exactly started.

Exactly. We don't have the full footage but whatever that moron shot (and edited out) clearly shows that the RR guy's actions weren't an act of defiance. The RR guy, me or even you, for that matter, wouldn't even think of running over an animal, let alone a human being without guilt or remorse. He panicked, tried to get outta there but in the process ran over those bikers, ACCIDENTALLY!

Do you have any basis for the concealed weapon hypothesis? Or, are you making this up out of thin air?

Do you have any basis for your posts? Or do they come out of thin air?
Read my post carefully and I mentioned a word there - possibility. Which comes from the fact that they were carrying knives (you can't slash a car's tyres using fingernails, can you?) leading to the probability that they might be carrying concealed weapons too.



a. Their gear/lack thereof doesnt make them hooligans. You need to pause to consider the video started AFTER the problem was developing, so u dont know how they had behaved before the incident.
b. Would you RUN OVER (i.e be ready to kill / maim) folks because of a misunderstanding or some stupid bravado? Since you are so confident on using your car as an offensive weapon to get out of a sticky situation - have mind sharing if ever done it?

a) Yes, it does. Watch some other videos of the same group and decide if they can be termed as safe, responsible riders. Lack of proper gear, crazy driving antics, shabby highway manners, vandalism, bullying all point out to them being hooligans.
b) Copy-Paste is a useful feature, isn't it?


Maybe there's a basic ingrained respect for human life but I am simply disgusted at folks suggesting that its the right thing to run over folks, compounding what was a minor issue into full blown manslaughter and homicide.

By this logic, in a 3rd world country like India, where the police helpline itself may sometimes not work, the police may take hours to come - it is perfectly fine for some folks to quickly take the lives of as many people as they deem necessary "to defend one's family" from any possible threat. And then its a very short slippery slope away to total anarchy and jungle raj. If this is what some BHPians think - god save us from the rest of the folks on the road.

No one's actually suggesting what you are believing them to be. I'm feeling disgusted about your ignorance in spite of everyone advocating only the fact that the RR guy was right in defending his family; not mowing down people. Which, I reiterate, he did accidentally.

Clearly cool heads like ajmat displayed in Feb (Road Rage Victim & Theater Personality AN Ramesh Dies), are in terrible short supply. Or Suhaas, should've run over the extorting roadrage chap (Victim of Road Rage + Extortion!). Or this other incident (Delhi road rage).

Completely different situations man. And while we are on topic, suhas did regret that he did not stand his ground and instead gave in to the situation. He even mentioned the necessity of carrying a baseball bat in the future. As for ajmat, he clearly knew he could take down the man but showed the maturity of not picking on someone inferior to him in strength. Whereas Lien had his wife, his daughter against 70-odd fools.

What about the bikers?

Damn - just read about https://www.facebook.com/pages/Justi...11664345601619 via Gannu. May Alexian Lien's karma catch up with him and he suffers for the injuries he has inflicted on others.

Bikers?? I'm surprised anyone would even call them bikers and degenerate the term itself. Their karma caught up with them. Not later rather on the spot.

Attachment 1147674

Anyways, lest this thread too degenerate into a pointless free-for-alllike the Delhi stunter shooting, I will now defer to XKCD: http://xkcd.com/386/ - Personally I won't run over someone in such a situation. NEVER. What I take away from the thread is that there'll be others who'd react unpredictably and be ready to resort to fatal violence at the slightest imagined threat to their families. The best route is to avoid such fracas by being ultra defensive from the start and tolerate occasional abuses/extortion. Reminds me of the standup comic who once likened our vehicles to assault weapons and joked about how people turn into completely aggressive and dangerous folks behind the wheel.

I would really like to see how you'd react if placed in a similar mock-up situation; if you'd be able to hold up your morals, rational thoughts and senses.
Quote:
Originally Posted by phamilyman View Post
Your incident is again downright foolish in *my* book - had all those guys turned up with enough weapons to overwhelm you , things could've been WAY dirtier (I know of an similar such murder near my place where a local rowdy skilled in fighting was simply overwhelmed by manymore rowdies and iron rods). I am happy that you made the best of that mess - good for you. *I* will not behave as you did even if I had the talent and the fitness - to each their own. Whose to say that those rowdies could've not come back at you or (worse) your family later?

I do not mean to flame you personally but torro rosso knew he could take down those guys who were threatening his family and so he did. What's so foolish about that? I agree that they could've came back later with more people/arms and things would've gotten uglier but who's to say that the mob would've stayed calm if torro had did the same and wait for the authorities? He stayed calm and righteously asked them about compensation for the damages to his car. What did he get in return? Did they calmly reject his claim? Did they wait for the authorities to settle the issue? Did they think twice about the occupants of his car before they started to manhandle it?

The worst part is that the video has footage of the biker's stupidity but not of Lien mowing Mieses down. (could he have avoided him?)

Have you even seen the video carefully? Although distorted. you can see him run over Mieses. He could've avoided him but not in the state of mind that he was in.

If everyone starts killing others the moment they fear being beaten in a road rage incident, then God save this world.

There are a lot of other incidents happening in the world other than road rage where people can lose it and act out of fear, anger or hatred
My replies in bold.

Quote:
Originally Posted by satishv1987 View Post
All that the car's driver had to do was call the cops immediately. The first time he bumps the biker you can clearly see that the biker slows down all of a sudden.The Rover was also at fault. He should ve maintained a safe distance from the bike in front of him.
It has been reported that he did call the cops very early before this incident. Safe distance from what dude? These A-holes were all over the place!

Quote:
Originally Posted by humyum View Post
Even in Panic situations you can make sure you don't hurt people while you escape. I mean comes as a natural human reaction when a bike and car is involved that the car has to 'make sure' he does not take a life in the form of the biker because at the most the car will get damaged and for the biker, the at the most is 'death'.

If I was the Ranger Rover guy, I would have not gunned the accelerator and plummeted through the group, but rather gently accelerator and pushed the bikes as well as the riders off the way. A gentle touch and move, atleast that way the bikers would have got time to move away, the bike being run over is fine.

Gunning the accelerator just made sure his intent was to run at 'any cost' even if it meant killing. Sure seemed like an immature dude. Of course the bikers are way immature too, but when you are in a bigger vehicle, you should be more responsible than the bikers.
Could have and should have. While I'm also of the opinion that he should've manoeuvred his way around them safely, one can't simply deny that our reflexes, courage and rationalism go out the window when we get backed up into a corner. If he came to a halt just because he'd nudged someone, I highly doubt his intentions were to mow anyone down just to get outta there at any cost. Hell, if it was his intent, he could've rammed everyone down and never stopped in the first place. Afraid, not immature.

Mod Note : Please do NOT reply to posts using bold text within a quoted post, as it leads to visual discomfort for readers. Additionally, it's inconvenient to quote & reply to such a post.

For the correct way to quote, please see this thread (How to MULTI-QUOTE (when replying to a thread) on Team-BHP).

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Last edited by bblost : 3rd October 2013 at 22:33.
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Old 3rd October 2013, 22:59   #89
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Default Re: New York: Road Rage / Accident between Range Rover & Bikers

Found another video of them. Seems like they have been doing this for some time now.

Quote:
It looks like this wasn't the first time this group has done something like this. The following video shows what is believed to be the same group attacking another vehicle back in 2011. Skip to 1:15
https://www.facebook.com/video/embed...01210860167803
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Last edited by 500ContyCruiser : 3rd October 2013 at 23:21.
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Old 4th October 2013, 03:30   #90
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Default Re: New York: Road Rage / Accident between Range Rover & Bikers

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Originally Posted by amitoj View Post
What happened to the biker that got run over was not done intentionally by the RR guy. In law, "intent" is a major factor in deciding the magnitude of the crime and the subsequent punishment. Obviously the NY DA does not think there was any intentional harm done to the biker.

But despite all that, no one can deny that the best way to handle this situation would have been to not let that situation happen in the first place. The altercation must have started before the video started capturing it. And THAT starting point is where the RR guy should have backed down, even if it meant taking an early exit from the highway. This is what the driver's handbook also states when you are being tailgated. But after crossing the point of no return, the RR guy was left with no option but to do what he did to ensure his and his family's safety.
I agree with you almost entirely except the bold part.

The RR driver WAS an idiot who did not exercise all his options. If you see, the white shirted biker, Cruz was close to the car's LHS, since 15 secs into the video and clearly around 19 seconds. The hit happens at 27 seconds. 8 seconds is long enough - mind you, he had already been trapped in by the bikers much earlier. HE SHOULD HAVE BEEN ON HIGH ALERT and SHOULD have been BACKING OFF much earlier. But he did not. Mistake ONE.

I fervently believe he could've avoided hitting Cruz. It did not come out of the blue.

That said again, i dont see anything in the video atleast that clearly shows the RR being so violently attacked that he would actually DRIVE OVER Mieses who who was checking on another rider and NOT attacking Lien. All the bikers had stopped at that time, by the way. That is CLEAR in the video. Only one or two seem to be moving towards the RR at that time. Heck he was in a frigging RR, NOT a convertible. EVEN if he was being attacked by ten bikers - he can mow them down any moment he decides. That option was ALWAYS open to him. He exercised it way too early, and on the WRONG guy. That is MY belief (though if there's a better video, i'm open to changing my belief on Mieses' culpability as well).

Is that cause enough to mow down someone possibly killing him? NOT IN MY BOOK. That said, I buy your logic on the intent completely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kdp95 View Post
... snipped...
KDP95,
I have not been in the exact same situation, but be rest assured that I am the kind of person who would let his car be vandalized or be beaten up/slapped around a bit OR pay for other's mistakes than try and play rambo on the streets. Like I said - 2 lakh km in the last decade, a lot of it in the NCR where road rage is common. I've avoided fights even at the cost of getting the car scratched or the windshield nearly smashed (by a woman at that!) or paying off rowdies for THEIR jackas$ery. Like I've been repeating, my mind has an anti-rambo program - I de-escalate, ignore taunts , hold back and avoid confrontation before $hit hits the fan. You can see there was another white van which was also on the same road among the bikers at the same time, but it got away. Its worth thinking why?

On a side note, the biker club's rash riding or past misdemeanors DO NOT equate to Lien driving Mieses over in my mind. But I realize and respect that the common junta experiences self-righteous catharsis when blood is spilled, esp of the offending party (the rowdy bikers in both instances). Such is life. That the wrong person pays the price is always an inconsequential detail. Just as I felt for the poor kid who had come as pillion and was shot dead by a trigger happy cop in the recent Bangla Sahib case. My value system is based on an inviolable respect for human life.

Oh and btw - Feel free to please pay Rambo under the conditions you have described I am not here to convert or convince anyone- just sharing my viewpoint without any personal attacks. I am only perturbed at the average reactions which tells me to expect much worse from the average man who has much higher mob mentality.

Last edited by phamilyman : 4th October 2013 at 03:34.
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