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Old 4th October 2013, 04:02   #91
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Default Re: New York: Road Rage / Accident between Range Rover & Bikers

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Originally Posted by phamilyman View Post
I agree with you almost entirely except the bold part.

The RR driver WAS an idiot who did not exercise all his options. If you see, the white shirted biker, Cruz was close to the car's LHS, since 15 secs into the video and clearly around 19 seconds. The hit happens at 27 seconds. 8 seconds is long enough - mind you, he had already been trapped in by the bikers much earlier. HE SHOULD HAVE BEEN ON HIGH ALERT and SHOULD have been BACKING OFF much earlier. But he did not. Mistake ONE.

I fervently believe he could've avoided hitting Cruz. It did not come out of the blue.

That said again, i dont see anything in the video atleast that clearly shows the RR being so violently attacked that he would actually DRIVE OVER Mieses who who was checking on another rider and NOT attacking Lien. All the bikers had stopped at that time, by the way. That is CLEAR in the video. Only one or two seem to be moving towards the RR at that time.
If you look at the video closely, there are many bikers next to the RR. Cruz decides that he is going to brake check a 3 ton SUV and moves in front of the RR at the 24th second and brakes on 25th and gets hit at 26th. I dont think any amount of human reflexes would have been able to prevent the laws of physics from coming into action and causing a collision. Cruz was the real idiot and he has rightfully been charged for reckless endangerment.

Also, you seem to indicate that the RR intentionally ran over Meises. There is no EVIDENCE to support that either. Meises had no business riding on the road in the first place with a suspended license. In a way Meises' karma caught up with him! He dared to go on a ride without a valid license and now he wont be able to ride for the rest of his life. Now THAT is karma!! Also, the NY Police Commissioner himself has given the statement that when the RR was stopped after the hit, its tires were slashed and the vehicle attacked. RR is not a convertible but that did not prevent the bikers from smashing his window and dragging him out. Had he not moved away from there, who is to say that he wont have met the same fate or worse at that very spot?
And why do you put the onus of restraint on the RR guy only? What the bikers did after that also does not show any restraint.

Last edited by amitoj : 4th October 2013 at 04:06.
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Old 4th October 2013, 05:45   #92
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Well the fact that the RR guy hasnt been charged in this case and the fact that the bikers have been charged clearly shows who was at fault and who wasnt.

This is the US and "the bigger vehicle is always at fault and act with restraint" philosophy from India doesn't work here.

It happened in a busy highway in the US and there is no dearth for eyewitness accounts. Nothing so far has faulted the RR guy yet.

So to second guess what transpired out there is a futile exercise.

Sitting so far away in the confines of the home and preaching what the RR guy should have, could have done and dishing out the "holier than thou" gyan is one thing, but facing it out there with your family in the car is another.
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Old 4th October 2013, 08:34   #93
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Default Re: New York: Road Rage / Accident between Range Rover & Bikers

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Originally Posted by amitoj View Post
If you look at the video closely, there are many bikers next to the RR. Cruz decides that he is going to brake check a 3 ton SUV and moves in front of the RR at the 24th second and brakes on 25th and gets hit at 26th. I dont think any amount of human reflexes would have been able to prevent the laws of physics from coming into action and causing a collision. Cruz was the real idiot and he has rightfully been charged for reckless endangerment.

Also, you seem to indicate that the RR intentionally ran over Meises. There is no EVIDENCE to support that either. Meises had no business riding on the road in the first place with a suspended license. In a way Meises' karma caught up with him! He dared to go on a ride without a valid license and now he wont be able to ride for the rest of his life. Now THAT is karma!! Also, the NY Police Commissioner himself has given the statement that when the RR was stopped after the hit, its tires were slashed and the vehicle attacked. RR is not a convertible but that did not prevent the bikers from smashing his window and dragging him out. Had he not moved away from there, who is to say that he wont have met the same fate or worse at that very spot?
And why do you put the onus of restraint on the RR guy only? What the bikers did after that also does not show any restraint.
My point is about being overdefensive in the face of clearly jacka$s bikers - I am not saying that the bikers were in the right. I'm just saying how things COULD have been de-escalated. I *would* have slowed down much more since 19 second into the video. I'm not saying the RR should have legally done that - your point is completely valid legally. The accident fault lies on Cruz's shoulders - BUT Lien could've been more defensive, that's just my only point.

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Well the fact that the RR guy hasnt been charged in this case and the fact that the bikers have been charged clearly shows who was at fault and who wasnt.

This is the US and "the bigger vehicle is always at fault and act with restraint" philosophy from India doesn't work here.

It happened in a busy highway in the US and there is no dearth for eyewitness accounts. Nothing so far has faulted the RR guy yet.

So to second guess what transpired out there is a futile exercise.

Sitting so far away in the confines of the home and preaching what the RR guy should have, could have done and dishing out the "holier than thou" gyan is one thing, but facing it out there with your family in the car is another.
I was sharing my over-defensive (if there is such a word) philosophy. Isnt this what we discuss on TBHP - how WE could've avoided it, etc? Please don't ascribe a philosophy to me that I dont espouse.

Lastly, since you havent bothered to read my posts - everyone faces road rage in India, esp in NCR, in varying amounts. We're not driving away in some wonderland of some sort.
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Old 4th October 2013, 09:51   #94
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Default Re: New York: Road Rage / Accident between Range Rover & Bikers

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Originally Posted by phamilyman View Post
BUT Lien could've been more defensive, that's just my only point.
WHY

If he was in India he knows he cannot rely on the Police and the law to do the right thing. But he is in a country where you can stand up for your rights.
The right to have a peaceful commute.

So tell me one reason why Lien should have been defensive and backed off.
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Old 4th October 2013, 09:59   #95
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Originally Posted by bblost View Post
WHY

If he was in India he knows he cannot rely on the Police and the law to do the right thing. But he is in a country where you can stand up for your rights.
The right to have a peaceful commute.

So tell me one reason why Lien should have been defensive and backed off.
Agree. In a country where you have lived and know that your rights are upheld and respected no matter what, why should he be over-defensive? Thats not instinct right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by phamilyman View Post
I agree with you almost entirely except the bold part.
There is no need for all this. I am sure the RR guy was not looking for trouble when out a quiet drive with his family including an infant. I am sure he isn't jumping for joy in his home, thinking that he taught the guy a lesson that he won't forget for the rest of his life. In the end I would say hindsight is always genius.

Last edited by moralfibre : 4th October 2013 at 10:17. Reason: Back to back posts.
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Old 4th October 2013, 10:13   #96
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Default Re: New York: Road Rage / Accident between Range Rover & Bikers

Typical mentality of majority of the road users especially in India is - The bigger vehicle is always at fault, it has happened in this case to, the RR guys reaction is in panic and I don't think he could have stopped and tried to pacify a group of emotional bikers, especially in a place like NY where they may even be carrying firearms. I am sure the last think you would want is to be shot dead by someone with whom you had an accident.
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Old 4th October 2013, 10:14   #97
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Default Re: New York: Road Rage / Accident between Range Rover & Bikers

I am all for staying calm and going out of my way to defuse a situation - even if it means some minor bangs on the vehicles or a smashed glass. But that is when I am alone or with guy friends.

If I ever feel that my family is in harm, or something can happen to them, then the gloves come off.
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Old 4th October 2013, 11:19   #98
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Default Re: New York: Road Rage / Accident between Range Rover & Bikers

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Originally Posted by Ford5 View Post
The driver has gotten away this time. Were any biker dead or seriously injured he would have been in the docks for sure. Come to think of it, why are people assuming that Bikers cannot be family men and deserve to be driven over by a 2 ton vehicle?
I haven't seen the vide yet but please note Chetan Rao's comment above (post 13). No one here is assuming the bikers cannot be family men but if one family man thinks it's not evil to do dish out this kind of hound behavior to another, then he deserved what he got, even if the SUV driver was not trying to kill him..
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Old 4th October 2013, 11:26   #99
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Default Re: New York: Road Rage / Accident between Range Rover & Bikers

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Originally Posted by vipinendran View Post
Typical mentality of majority of the road users especially in India is - The bigger vehicle is always at fault, it has happened in this case to, the RR guys reaction is in panic and I don't think he could have stopped and tried to pacify a group of emotional bikers, especially in a place like NY where they may even be carrying firearms. I am sure the last think you would want is to be shot dead by someone with whom you had an accident.

Typical mentality of majority of the road users especially in India is - The bigger the vehicle, the more authority I have to do anything and to run over anyone on the road, it has happened in this case to, the RR guys reaction is in over-confidence and I don't think he wanted to stop and try to pacify a group of emotional bikers, especially in a place like NY where they may even be carrying firearms. I am sure the last think you would want is to be shot dead by someone with whom you had an accident.


Fixed!
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Old 4th October 2013, 11:45   #100
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Default Re: New York: Road Rage / Accident between Range Rover & Bikers

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Originally Posted by phamilyman View Post
Would you RUN OVER (i.e be ready to kill / maim) folks because of a misunderstanding or some stupid bravado? PS: You dont have the full footage so we DONT know where/how it exactly started.

Maybe there's a basic ingrained respect for human life but I am simply disgusted at folks suggesting that its the right thing to run over folks, compounding what was a minor issue into full blown manslaughter and homicide.

By this logic, in a 3rd world country like India, where the police helpline itself may sometimes not work, the police may take hours to come - it is perfectly fine for some folks to quickly take the lives of as many people as they deem necessary "to defend one's family" from any possible threat. And then its a very short slippery slope away to total anarchy and jungle raj. If this is what some BHPians think - god save us from the rest of the folks on the road.

What about the bikers?

Damn - just read about https://www.facebook.com/pages/Justi...11664345601619 via Gannu. May Alexian Lien's karma catch up with him and he suffers for the injuries he has inflicted on others.

Anyways, lest this thread too degenerate into a pointless free-for-alllike the Delhi stunter shooting, I will now defer to XKCD: http://xkcd.com/386/ - Personally I won't run over someone in such a situation. NEVER. What I take away from the thread is that there'll be others who'd react unpredictably and be ready to resort to fatal violence at the slightest imagined threat to their families. The best route is to avoid such fracas by being ultra defensive from the start and tolerate occasional abuses/extortion. Reminds me of the standup comic who once likened our vehicles to assault weapons and joked about how people turn into completely aggressive and dangerous folks behind the wheel.
There seems to be too much sympathy with a gang of bikers who were behaving like hooligans. You should also care to explain why the bikers were riding in the manner they did? They weren't riding as bikers should, they were riding like a pack of wolves.

Don't you see that to be an issue that started it all? And what's the behavior about using knifes for slashing a guy's car tyres? Do we take away from your post that you support this kind of behavior, to stop a car? Slowing down a bike to reduce the speed of a car in the middle of a highway? Blocking an exit lane where the SUV driver would have clearly made away without any of these issues??

Its amusing how many members are only commenting that the Range rover driver should have taken it easy and calmed down (easier said) but why not extend the same caution or advice to the bikers? The suv driver also did the right thing of calling 911 and reporting the situation in. Pity the cops didn't reach in time.


Let's be rational with our perspectives. No one here is stating that driving over the bikers was the right thing or driving to kill is right. The unfortunate thing happened and as someone pointed early in this thread, both parties are 'incorrect' with what they did. Legally or otherwise.


In B'lore you can see how many bikers (mostly locals) ride harshly and stare at car drivers as if they're the ones at fault. What do you then call this mentality? I hope as BHPians we don't deem this as acceptable?

I'm not saying all this because I own a 4 wheeler. Much before owning cars, I've been a biker with a bullet group in Chennai and have experience riding 2 bikes over many years.

Last edited by k_ajay : 4th October 2013 at 11:50.
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Old 4th October 2013, 12:22   #101
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Default Re: New York: Road Rage / Accident between Range Rover & Bikers

Guys,

Its really okay if you disagree with others but please do not throw opinions or force it down others throat.
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Old 4th October 2013, 13:13   #102
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Default Re: New York: Road Rage / Accident between Range Rover & Bikers

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Originally Posted by E63 View Post
Typical mentality of majority of the road users especially in India is - [b]The bigger the vehicle, the more authority I have to do anything and to run over anyone on the road

Fixed!
Would like to draw your attention to this which happened yesterday in Mumbai
http://www.ndtv.com/article/cities/m...ome-topstories
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Old 4th October 2013, 13:14   #103
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Default Re: New York: Road Rage / Accident between Range Rover & Bikers

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Originally Posted by phamilyman View Post
I have not been in the exact same situation, but be rest assured that I am the kind of person who would let his car be vandalized or be beaten up/slapped around a bit OR pay for other's mistakes than try and play rambo on the streets.... Its worth thinking why?
Below, cross-posting your statement from (Why should I be the sucker?)THIS post of yours in the "Why should I be the sucker?" thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by phamilyman View Post
At the end of the day, your reality is the one you choose to believe in. Thinking of it as sucker/victim mentality is paralyzing and achieves nothing. Its like all of us can spend our days paralyzed by fear that one day we will be dead, our loved ones will be dead, maybe the world we inhabit may come to an end, yada yada yada.
Or you can live each moment, embrace life as it comes and move on
My ask is, so why not stand up for what is right and mow down the wrong thing ? Do you promote to "be the sucker / victim" ?
Can't we all embrace life and stand up for what is right and take care of the wrong doers. I am saying that we are not the Judge, but why not be safe and try to be safe ? Even if it calls for doing something out of panic ?

All that I want to say is:
If I were alone, I would have probably stopped and picked up an argument with the bikers.
If I were with my family and kid, I would have slammed anyone coming in a way of threat to my family.
Refer my post HERE (New York: Road Rage / Accident between Range Rover & Bikers).

I see many of us here, not liking your point of view, so don't you think that there could be something different from what a normal human thinks and what you think ? I am not negating any of your views, but just wondering.
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Old 4th October 2013, 13:16   #104
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Default Re: New York: Road Rage / Accident between Range Rover & Bikers

If we're going to throw around broad suppositions for the heck of it, I'd venture a guess, given the number of bikers around the SUV, they would've probably picked a fight with him for brake-testing a biker behind if he'd braked harder to avoid bumping Cruz, or side-swiping a biker if he had tried to force his way to a blocked exit RAMP to avoid the situation altogether. All conjecture on my part, of course, but equally probable. See what I did there?

There is enough evidence posted on this very thread (and more online) to suggest the bikers involved are no strangers to such behavior. Actually, the reason they were riding on the highway was because the NYPD had blocked off their intended run through Times Square (again, please read the reports). These guys usually block an entire stretch of road, just so they can have their load of fun at everyone else's expense.

As for restraint, it works both ways. Actions have consequences, sometimes very unpleasant ones. There's a lot that everyone involved could've done differently, starting with the biker who should've stayed home when he didn't have a legal right to ride the bike (suspended license). They could've held the SUV driver and handed him over to the police (as one of the bikers claimed they called 911 in his statement). When they decided to dish out their own brand of justice in retaliation instead, they blew their own quest for 'justice', right there.

The entire video (shot by a fellow biker) doesn't show even ONE biker trying to stop things from escalating, and also conveniently stops just before they brutally beat up the SUV driver. They probably had a better chance of getting the SUV driver charged with a crime if they hadn't assaulted him & his car.

Restraint,you say? Well you don't get any if you don't give any, like a lot of other things in life, respect included.


EDIT: What I find really amusing on this thread, is anyone supporting the bikers' position goes to great pains to clarify that they don't condone violence but don't extend the same courtesy to posters supporting the SUV driver.

If one sides with the bikers, one gets to overlook blatantly illegal and dangerous behavior, but if one sides with the SUV driver, they're automatically assumed to condone intentional homicidal driving (even when they specifically state otherwise). How does this brand of standards work exactly?

Last edited by Chetan_Rao : 4th October 2013 at 13:39.
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Old 4th October 2013, 13:47   #105
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Default Re: New York: Road Rage / Accident between Range Rover & Bikers

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Originally Posted by shashank.nk View Post
The Range rover should have probably pulled over and let the biker pack pass, for the safety of his 5 year old and family. Most of the comments on YouTube are in support of the Range Rover though.
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Originally Posted by noopster View Post
At one level I feel for the guy trying to get away from a bad situation where his family could have been potentially harmed, but strictly from a commonsense perspective, he should have stayed put.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kdp95 View Post
I'm with the RR guy. When it comes to the safety of your family, nothing else matters. I agree that it'd have made sense to call and wait till the cops arrived. But the way those bikers behaved, I doubt they'd have left him alone till the authorities arrived because at the moment, they had outnumbered him and as someone said earlier, there is strength in numbers even if you are wrong.
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Originally Posted by Koenigsegg220 View Post
I feel what the police did is right.Anybody has the right defend their and their family's lives.
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Originally Posted by speedsatya View Post
I am surprised to see the SUV driver leave his doors unlocked ! Inspite of all these hooligans following him , he does drive sensibly and even stops at a red light ! Someone else in his place might have even rammed other vehicles while trying to protect himself and his family from these bikers.
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Originally Posted by acroback View Post
Family in danger -> Run the threat down.
Perfectly legit. What is wrong in it? I do not see anything wrong.
Threat perception is more than real in videos as you can see.
Threatening the guy with his family will result in someone ending up in ER. That is exactly what happened.
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Originally Posted by ToroRosso View Post
The point that i am trying to make here is that - Most of us have a primal instinct to Protect Family and how that manifests during a dire situation is completely unpredictable. The truly enligthened ones may be able to restrain them selves and exert a lot on control and patience under such situations.
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Originally Posted by kraft.wagen View Post
I totally agree with you that no one has a right to take someones life or take them down, but the situation here is different. The RR driver could have panicked, adrenaline rush, safety of his family, fear of getting beat by a mob are some that he may have gone through and being in a closed cage, he sure felt a little protected to flee taking down a few bikers. But the situation could have been whole lot different if he had been a pedestrian or even if he was on a convertible may be?
Quote:
Originally Posted by samarth.bhatia View Post
Currently, NYPD has not declared the RR as incorrect in his actions, as there are multiple factors contributing to the fact that he acted as such to protect his family from an intimidating biker gang, which in the end beat him up badly (once they found him stuck in city traffic).
Quote:
Originally Posted by 500ContyCruiser View Post
Yes, if have read complete story posted here (in various articles) he did call 911. However as the bikers were already over him and he felt there is no point in waiting for cops to arrive, as his family was already at stake.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Soumyajit9 View Post
If I were with my family and kid, I would have slammed anyone coming in a way of threat to my family.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jraj View Post
facing it out there with your family in the car is another.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nilanjanray View Post
If I ever feel that my family is in harm, or something can happen to them, then the gloves come off.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soumyajit9 View Post
If I were with my family and kid, I would have slammed anyone coming in a way of threat to my family.
OK.

So what I'm gonna do is buy a Bolero(cant afford a RR), put my family in it, go to a biker's sunday ride, some place like xBHP dhaba, start rear-ending bikers, and when the resent, run over them.
And since I'm with my family, I'm justified killing bikers.

Damn!
How cool is that!
Totally in conformity with the principles of Natural Justice!

Note from Team-bhp support: Do not type an entire post in bold. Always quote only relevant sections of the post instead of the entire post. Thanks!

Last edited by moralfibre : 4th October 2013 at 14:08.
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