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Old 12th October 2013, 11:04   #1
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Default Future generations of the VW Polo may not have DSGs!

A report by GoAuto indicates that Volkswagen future light vehicles could switch to an eight or nine-speed torque-converter automatic transmission, with the next crop of DSG dual-clutch units reserved only for vehicles of Golf-size and beyond.
This would mean that the future versions of Polo will have torque converters and not the DSG. Same will be the case in case Up make it to our market.

The move centers on economies of scale, as there isnít the global volume to justify the cost development of a new-generation DSG suitable for a B and sub-B vehicle installation.
Furthermore, the senior engineer explained that city car drivers prefer the instantaneous take-off acceleration as well as the reduced noise/vibration/harshness properties provided by the torque converter automatic transmission applications.

Source: http://www.goauto.com.au/mellor/mell...257BF80019F469

Last edited by sarathlal : 12th October 2013 at 11:08.
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Old 13th October 2013, 17:34   #2
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Default Re: Future generations of the VW Polo may not have DSGs!

DSG was plagued with a series of problems and was low on reliability. That doesnot mean that Dual clutch technology (DCT) is bad. DCT has better fuel efficiency than normal automatics. The figures are as high as 16%. It has less no of parts and is less complex to repair and maintain. The parts too should cost less as its nothing but a manual transmission converted to a robotic shift transmission. The other automatics have costly planetary compound transmissions, complex hydraulics, brake bands to hold one member of the planetary drive train while power transmission and the most inefficient member the Torque Convertor.
Although Torque convertor has its advantages of NVH and increasing torque but the efficiency is very poor and has complex hydraulics and hydraulic oil cooling parts.

I think VW didnt want to invest again on DCT and were not able to sort their DSG woes.
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Old 13th October 2013, 19:01   #3
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That's really sad to read. The dual clutch on the polo GT was simply awesome. More so given that it s a hot hatch. The number crunchers win in the end.
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Old 14th October 2013, 13:59   #4
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Default Re: Future generations of the VW Polo may not have DSGs!

I'm also wondering if warranty repair costs ate into the thin profit margins of a budget hatchback. DSGs aren't cheap to fix, while the Polo is one of VW's cheapest product offerings.

This might just be a decision driven by the bean counters.

Another contributing factor could be the need to differentiate its more expensive Golf from the Polo.
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Old 15th October 2013, 11:31   #5
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Default Re: Future generations of the VW Polo may not have DSGs!

Seems that VW wants to create a chain of discontinued products in India and some of the other emerging markets, making sure that the new buyers shy away from VW products as cost of ownership is bound to increase after a product line is discontinued.

This will happen to the owners of NA petrol Vento and may be DSG Polo owners in due course of time.

Not good on part of manufacturer either.
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Old 15th October 2013, 21:31   #6
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Default Re: Future generations of the VW Polo may not have DSGs!

Hope VW will continue developing these DSG boxes for their entry level products like Polo and UP!. The only thing is, they should be able to price it competitively. I am sure they will ask for a huge premium for these boxes.
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Old 1st November 2013, 13:31   #7
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Default Re: Future generations of the VW Polo may not have DSGs!

Quote:
Should the Next Polo GTI Be a 1.6 TSI or 1.8 TSI?

Speculations are the Gen Next Polo will arrive no later than 2015, built in the MQB platform.

Likely that Polo would move to the premium segment ,which no longer has the role of an entry-level car since the arrival of the Up!.
But Skoda, who will have the new Fabia ready before the Polo, won't be using MQB.

While the Polo GTI has a 1.4-liter with both turbocharging and supercharging, while the rivals use the 1.6l turbocharged.

One possibility would be to continue using the same twincharger engine for the next Polo. If it gives more power and 100 kg of the current car's weight, 1269 kg, that would be enough. The other, more interesting option, would be to have a new engine developed, a 1.6 TSI, or use a powerful 1.8 TSI instead.

As far-fetched as it might sound, good to remember the previous Polo GTI was a 1.8-liter with 150 PS, so would the next gen see the 1.8TSI - A super hot hatch ?
http://www.autoevolution.com/news/sh...tsi-70094.html

Last edited by Mpower : 1st November 2013 at 21:11.
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Old 1st November 2013, 20:31   #8
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Default Re: Future generations of the VW Polo may not have DSGs!

Quote:
Originally Posted by amit_purohit20 View Post
DSG was plagued with a series of problems and was low on reliability. That doesnot mean that Dual clutch technology (DCT) is bad.
I think VW didnt want to invest again on DCT and were not able to sort their DSG woes.
But are they both not one and the same? I mean I thought DCT is Ford-speak for DSG. Or, am I wrong?
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Old 1st November 2013, 22:01   #9
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Default Re: Future generations of the VW Polo may not have DSGs!

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Originally Posted by pgsagar View Post
But are they both not one and the same? I mean I thought DCT is Ford-speak for DSG. Or, am I wrong?
DCT=DSG are the same.

What I meant to say that DCT gearboxes are not bad. Its that VW was not able to solve problems inherent in their design. They could not prove the technology in market and gave up might be because of the time and costs involved in proving the technology.

I would anyday say that DCT are far better than Torque Converter Automatic gearboxes because they contain less complex parts and less number of parts. Also the manufacturing cost of the gearbox should be lower. Reliability should also have gone up considering the less number of parts involved. But I think VW messed it up. They would have launched the Gearbox in haste and now its taking too much time to sort the issues out. Add to this the day by day mounting warranty costs associated with the product failures.
DCT gearboxes are also manufactured by ZF and they sell it to other OEM's. I am yet to hear failure stories of these gearboxes. ( I need to do more research here).

Basically DCT gearbox is nothing but a gearbox having two parallel shafts carrying gears. The next gear is already engaged through synchronizer. Its only when the particular clutch (Out of the two clutches) is set on that the next gear starts transferring power. So actually the shift to the next gear is taking place through a power transfer through different clutches.

DCT is like a manual gearbox. Only the shifting is robotized. The use of dual clutch helps to eliminate to some extent the torque interuption which occurs during a gear shift caused by the disengagement of the clutch.
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Old 16th December 2013, 16:44   #10
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Default Re: Future generations of the VW Polo may not have DSGs!

A eight or 9 speed auto box means lot of close ratios this points out to a comparatively more efficient torque converter with lock up clutch.

A Torque converter multiplies torque when it slips, when slip ratio is very high (engine reving without vehicle moment) or low (below 10%) it is very in-efficient, but with moderate slip effeciency is only about 5% less than a manual gearbox. Older torque converter gearboxes mechanical needed less number of ratios, and as vehicle gained speed, and slip reduced to just above 10% it used to up shifts.
So Torque converter AT need less no of ratios than a manual or a DCT / DSG /DCI which had fixed ratios.
Later Torque converters with lock up clutch were developed, these are only marginally less efficient than manual gears while cruising above a certain speed, but they need higher numbers of close spaced ratios to keep the engine in the torque band.
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Old 5th May 2014, 20:59   #11
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Default Re: Future generations of the VW Polo may not have DSGs!

Not exactly as the title suggests, but now VW Confirms 6-Speed Manual Transmission for Facelifted Polo GTI.
Quote:
The updated VW Polo GTI will again be offered with a six-speed manual transmission when it launches later this year
Quote:
It will have 192PS (189hp), so increased power, and it will be available not only with DSG but also with a manual transmission
Quote:
He added that VW’s decision to reintroduce the manual transmission option was due to the desires of car enthusiasts.

http://www.carscoops.com/2014/05/vw-...nsmission.html
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Old 5th May 2014, 21:18   #12
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Default Re: Future generations of the VW Polo may not have DSGs!

I for one wouldn't be too disappointed if DSG boxes are done away with.

The latest 8 speed boxes from ZF is said to be as good as any DSG with many motoring journalists being incapable of telling any perceptible difference in the in shift times.

It is not only in the mainstream cars that these 8 speeders are used. Abroad everything from a BMW 135i to a Rolls Royce Phantom use 8 speeders.

Sure they maybe inefficient compared to the DSGs but they are said to be more responsive in slow moving traffic conditions.

As for reliablity? Well I haven't got a clue about that part.
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Old 8th May 2014, 12:02   #13
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Default Re: Future generations of the VW Polo may not have DSGs!

Quote:
Originally Posted by nakul0888 View Post
I for one wouldn't be too disappointed if DSG boxes are done away with.

The latest 8 speed boxes from ZF is said to be as good as any DSG with many motoring journalists being incapable of telling any perceptible difference in the in shift times.

It is not only in the mainstream cars that these 8 speeders are used. Abroad everything from a BMW 135i to a Rolls Royce Phantom use 8 speeders.

Sure they maybe inefficient compared to the DSGs but they are said to be more responsive in slow moving traffic conditions.

As for reliablity? Well I haven't got a clue about that part.
DSGs were once viewed as they way forward for transmissions with significant benefits over traditional automatics. However the new generation of automatics (e.g. ZF 8 Speed) has changed that. These trannies use the torque converter almost exclusively during launch and remain locked most of the time thus reducing slip losses and providing the best of both worlds.

I can testify on the performance as my current ride has the same tranny. It's the smoothest automatic for me till date with superb response and shift times.

As for reliability, only future will tell however so far the going has been good globally. These are completely sealed boxes with fluids not needing change during the entire life of the transmission in normal circumstances.

I remember reading the interview of German transmission techie few years back (Don't remember the source now). They asked him if DSGs are the future and he replied "Wait till you see the next generation of automatics!"
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