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Old 3rd December 2014, 15:00   #1
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Default France to dissuade buyers from Diesel Cars

Dear BHPians,
Just came across this news.

http://auto.ndtv.com/news/france-to-...xt-year-707707

Quote:
France is one of the very few countries where more than 80 per cent of cars are powered by diesel engines. However, that might be about to change since France's Prime Minister, Manuel Valls, is planning to 'progressively' ban diesel cars from 2015. The move is said to be a part of a broader environmental effort.

The French government will launch a car identification system next year that will rate vehicles in accordance with the amount of pollution they produce, which will, in turn, help authorities limit city access to the 'dirtiest' cars.
How do you think this will help in reducing emissions?
Is there any way something like this can be done in India?

Last edited by GTO : 3rd December 2014 at 16:08. Reason: Adding a small excerpt :)
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Old 3rd December 2014, 15:37   #2
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Default re: France to dissuade buyers from Diesel Cars

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Originally Posted by igybeck View Post
How do you think this will help in reducing emissions?
Is there any way something like this can be done in India?
If at all some thing like is even discussed here in India, the ruling party would loose the next elections for sure. That is how much this country loves diesel.

Jokes apart, if not completely ban the diesel vehicles, I think there should be a way in which all polluting vehicles and not just diesels are banned from certain areas at least. This may help in getting the air a little better in the core residential areas.

Last edited by ILTDrive : 3rd December 2014 at 15:51.
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Old 3rd December 2014, 15:49   #3
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Red face re: France to dissuade buyers from Diesel Cars

IMO this is a far fetched decision to totally ban the diesel cars. Instead, taking efforts to reduce the emission levels would be more fruitful in the current scenario. Diesel cars are known to be more fuel efficient than the petrol ones and are mainly used by the transport sector same as is the case in India. Incentivising the emission norms would bear better results than banning diesel cars altogether.
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Old 3rd December 2014, 15:53   #4
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Default re: France to dissuade buyers from Diesel Cars

The US has the same pollution specs for Petrol and Diesel cars and still sales of D models are increasing, so as long as a car meets the specs the fuel should not matter.
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Old 3rd December 2014, 15:58   #5
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Default re: France to dissuade buyers from Diesel Cars

While most people might not be pleased with this decision, to me this sounds like something that has to be done worldwide. NOT a ban, but diesel should certainly be publicised as a higher polluting fuel than petrol.

Despite the advancements in diesel engines and emission norms, fact still remains that the particulate matter emissions & NOx is substantially higher in diesel which directly changes the air around us. Indian buyers love diesel so this topic is like walking on a minefield. Of course there may be savings for people who go long distances on diesel, although some of it maybe offset by the substantially higher cost of the diesel engine itself. When it comes to power though, there isn't much improvement as, a similarly tuned turbo petrol engine will be just as fun with the lighter weight & refined silent operation. Diesel cars are least flattering, heard from outside compared to a low whine of a petrol engine.

All those apart it is indeed true that emission norms will get stricter as the days go by. The demand in diesel itself, is the largest culprit of its waning popularity. Diesel now is much more utilised than petrol due to gensets, heavy vehicles, transport buses, etc. With demand will come rising cost, the first to get affected will be the diesel owners as they have to contend with not only rising running costs but also lower resale.

Controversial statement, though it has its own fans as well - petrol is & will remain the original fun-to-drive engine. As I'd said in another post, I'm not promoting petrol either, it is equally but differently polluting. The solution lies in following the middle path, ensuring that engines of any fuel type keep improving in terms of consumption. The refineries must also do their best in ensuring optimum quality fuel is available worldwide. India certainly is one of the worst markets for quality going by the number of conking-outs due to bad fuel. Also a situational approach must be applied to maintain the balance of sales of engines, where subsidies/higher taxes must be doled out, this is the only way to prevent spiralling cost of one fuel, and a sudden shift towards the other which has played havoc with the environment. Lets not forget that increasing diesel prices will hit commodities and inflation as well.
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Old 3rd December 2014, 17:06   #6
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Default re: France to dissuade buyers from Diesel Cars

I feel that this is being done in our country since a few years now i.e. Our government trying to discourage the buyers from the diesel cars

They started with rising the diesel prices every month, to a stage now where Diesel has been de-regulated.

This means the difference between Petrol and Diesel prices will be much less.

The only population of Car buyers who will now opt for Diesels are the one's which have a much much higher running per month (say 2500 kms at least). Ofcourse the taxi market still will opt for the Diesel, but even there, the cars with CNG will have a much lower cost per km, even when they have to use petrol for part of the journey, because petrol cars are cheaper upfront (new or used) to buy - I have myself seen a few petrol Logans used with CNG under OLA cabs etc.

EDIT: I am not sure if there is a number available of the petrol and diesel cars sold in our MoM sales figures, but I am sure we will see a decline in the Diesel Car sales in the last 6-12 months. This is evident from the fact that most of the popular diesel cars which earlier had long waiting periods and "zero" discounts are now readily available with decent discounts thrown in.

Last edited by vinit.merchant : 3rd December 2014 at 17:09.
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Old 3rd December 2014, 22:45   #7
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Although the title of the article suggests that diesel cars will be banned, on reading the entire article it seems to me that France will only be taking steps to reduce the preference for diesel cars. From the steps mentioned in the article, it seems like France is trying to catch up with some of the other EU countries. Where I live, diesel and petrol prices are almost equal. Petrol cars are cheaper to buy and petrol car owners pay less tax every year than diesel car owners. It really doesn't make sesnse for a private buyer with low to medium usage to buy a diesel car at all.
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Old 3rd December 2014, 23:56   #8
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Default re: France to dissuade buyers from Diesel Cars

Just in case you didn't know, diesel is a cleaner fuel than petrol. The exhaust looks dirtier, but the invisible fumes of petrol exhaust are more harmful than diesel.
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Old 4th December 2014, 01:05   #9
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Default re: France to dissuade buyers from Diesel Cars

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Originally Posted by Live To Jive View Post
Just in case you didn't know, diesel is a cleaner fuel than petrol. The exhaust looks dirtier, but the invisible fumes of petrol exhaust are more harmful than diesel.
I can smell a diesel car on the road with my eyes closed be it a diesel engine on a Beemer or a DDIS engine on a swift,so its not just the color of the fumes.

Last edited by aim120 : 4th December 2014 at 01:06.
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Old 4th December 2014, 02:39   #10
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Default re: France to dissuade buyers from Diesel Cars

Many of the European cities already have strict pollution norms, and diesel cars with particle filters are able to meet them. "Phasing out diesel cars" looks more like a political talk than a pragmatic plan.

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Old 4th December 2014, 08:28   #11
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Default re: France to dissuade buyers from Diesel Cars

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Originally Posted by Live To Jive View Post
Just in case you didn't know, diesel is a cleaner fuel than petrol. The exhaust looks dirtier, but the invisible fumes of petrol exhaust are more harmful than diesel.
Please get your facts straight. No one has ever been silly enough to claim that Diesel fumes are cleaner than Petrol. Companies used to claim that the fuel is cleaner only because of its greater efficiency and fewer CO2s. However, more recent surveys have proven that there is more to being green than CO2s and fuel efficiency. There are other more harmful gases that diesel emits in large amounts like NOx. Why do you think Delhi still has trouble combating their declining air quality? Because ownership of privately registered diesel cars has exponentially increased in the past 15 years.

Lastly, the reason countries are suddenly deciding to tax diesels and ban them from city centers, is because they ARE more harmful. They cause 10 times more health problems than petrol emissions. The UN stated that it was so carcinogenic that it is comparable to secondary cigarette smoking (and this was in 2012 with modern diesel engines). They are even said to cause heart attacks and asthma. Governments have known about this for a long time but still used to market them as greener. You my friend just fell for poppycock. So think about this the next time you claim that the nasty fumes from diesel cars are actually clean

Last edited by IshaanIan : 4th December 2014 at 08:30.
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Old 4th December 2014, 09:10   #12
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Default re: France to dissuade buyers from Diesel Cars

I don't think there is any more doubt about which is more harmful.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2013/j...s-worse-petrol
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Old 4th December 2014, 11:21   #13
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Default re: France to dissuade buyers from Diesel Cars

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Originally Posted by Live To Jive View Post
Just in case you didn't know, diesel is a cleaner fuel than petrol. The exhaust looks dirtier, but the invisible fumes of petrol exhaust are more harmful than diesel.
Diesel has NoX
The DPF and Urea based Particulate filters are not mainstream.
Can diesel be a cleaner fuel or as clean as Petrol? Yes, but then you need really stringent fuel norms which will push up costs of car production.

But this is the correct way. Define limits of NO(x) + Sulfur and add a progressive tax based on that. Irrespective of vehicle between petrol/diesel whatever, tax is based on emissions. Above a certain level tax can go as high as the cost of the vehicle(make it exponential)

However, a blanket taxation is wrong.
Let us say, we have 10% tax on petrol cars and 50% tax on diesel cars. I can make a diesel car which is less polluting than petrol, but it will push up cost by 20%. Will I do so? No. I won't
However, if the tax is based on the offending exhaust, then its a free run for the free market. Use diesel/petrol/kerosene/natural gas/vegetable oil whatever, just meet the norms.

Last edited by tsk1979 : 4th December 2014 at 11:23.
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Old 4th December 2014, 19:07   #14
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Default Re: France to dissuade buyers from Diesel Cars

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Originally Posted by joju View Post
Many of the European cities already have strict pollution norms, and diesel cars with particle filters are able to meet them. "Phasing out diesel cars" looks more like a political talk than a pragmatic plan.
Our PSU Oilcos are incapable of producing Euro-IV Diesel, this is why they got norms for BS-IV Diesel relaxed, forget EuroV, BSV is being postponed to 2020 or beyond.
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Old 4th December 2014, 19:36   #15
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Default Re: France to dissuade buyers from Diesel Cars

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Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
However, if the tax is based on the offending exhaust, then its a free run for the free market. Use diesel/petrol/kerosene/natural gas/vegetable oil whatever, just meet the norms.
US has a similar tax but it is based on fuel economy rather than emissions. The Gas Guzzler tax is applied to all cars that give a combined EPA estimated mileage of below 22.5 mpg (9.5 kmpl) The taxation is relative to how much further below the mileage is. Here is a chart:
Combined fuel economy of: Amount
at least 22.5 mpg No tax
at least 21.5, but less than 22.5 mpg $1000
at least 20.5, but less than 21.5 mpg $1300
at least 19.5, but less than 20.5 mpg $1700
at least 18.5, but less than 19.5 mpg $2100
at least 17.5, but less than 18.5 mpg $2600
at least 16.5, but less than 17.5 mpg $3000
at least 15.5, but less than 16.5 mpg $3700
at least 14.5, but less than 15.5 mpg $4500
at least 13.5, but less than 14.5 mpg $5400
at least 12.5, but less than 13.5 mpg $6400
less than 12.5 mpg $7700

Source: http://www.epa.gov/fueleconomy/guzzler/420f12068.pdf

But here is the kicker! This law was implemented back in 1978 and it does not include minivans, trucks or SUVs because at that time they were not very widely in use. And it still stays this way!

This country is funny!!
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