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Old 12th December 2014, 15:26   #16
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Default Re: Japan Report: Toyota Mirai Hydrogen Fuel Cell Car, and Toyota's Safety Technology

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Originally Posted by VintageSree View Post
Sure this is an interesting technology. Any alternative to fossil fuels is welcome.

I'm intrigued by the fact that the car's generating electricity from hydrogen instead of burning it as a fuel more like the ICEs that the regular cars use, that would have been a straighter way to use a fuel, eh?

!
Yeah I agree that burning hydrogen is easier like conventional ICE's but the problem is some pollutants like NOx are produced. With fuel cell vehicles hydrogen is made to react selectively with oxygen and water is the only product.
The only thing to bear in mind is that the production of Hydrogen itself causes lots of emissions. Currently the best way to produce Hydrogen commercially is by using naphtha or natural gas and these processes involve emission of greenhouse gases. But still hydrogen ends up costing several times as much as conventional fuels for refiners and producers. Perhaps the advancement of electrolytic processes may finally usher in the era of cheap and renewable energy in the form of hydrogen

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Old 12th December 2014, 15:29   #17
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Default Re: Japan Report: Toyota Mirai Hydrogen Fuel Cell Car, and Toyota's Safety Technology

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Originally Posted by bblost View Post
Initially the availability is going to be low. But hopefully things will change as fossil fuels are limited and there is only so much that we can mine.
Good Knowledgeable thread. Thanks for sharing.

Fossil fuels are not going to last long. We need to make a start on alternate technology. Even Petrol bunks would have been limited when they started first on fossil fuels. Now it might be ubiquitous.

The technology seems to be promising. Hope they will able to convert to production with affordable cost. It is also clean which improves the environment.

It is heartening to know car manufacturers are concentrating on proactive safety systems.
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Old 12th December 2014, 16:05   #18
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Default Re: Japan Report: Toyota Mirai Hydrogen Fuel Cell Car, and Toyota's Safety Technology

Hydrogen as a fuel is excellent to power not only our cars, but possibly our homes in the future. Look at this guy: He is living the dream , No power bills ever
http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...ydrogen-house/
However, when you say that steam water reformation is an efficient and clean way to produce Hydrogen, I will have to say you are largely mistaken. This is a common misconception that Hydrogen formed through SWR is clean, and CO2 emissions are low.

Let me break that myth. Infact, the CO2 emitted by producing Hydrogen through SWR is higher than CO2 emitted by a car powered by fossil fuel.

Look at this US government research report for proof.
http://8. http://www.netl.doe.gov/File%20Library/Research/Energy%20Analysis/Life%20Cycle%20Analysis/h2_from_coal_lng_final.pdf

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The fact remains, majority of the Hydrogen we produce today is for the production of fertilisers in processes like the Haber's process. All this Hydrogen is produced through SWR and releases loads of CO2. It is out of no options that Hydrogen is being produced this way.

Governments of states like California act like they are promoting green technologies, and then fill up the Hydrogen fuel pumps with Hydrogen formed through SWR and tell the people that Hydrogen is a clean fuel and what not.

This is majorly the reason why Hydrogen is not able to reach mainstream market for cars as it is too expensive, or too polluting to produce.

A lot of research is going on to use Solar energy to split water to produce H2, but the processes are far too inefficient and expensive.

However, it is good to see Hydrogen car technology developing, as I am certain that in the coming future, we'll be able to find the best method to produce H2, a method which is efficient, cheap and non polluting.

Till then, I believe car manufacturers should strive to perfect their technologies for this upcoming and highly potent fuel.

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Old 12th December 2014, 16:09   #19
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Default Re: Japan Report: Toyota Mirai Hydrogen Fuel Cell Car, and Toyota's Safety Technology

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Originally Posted by prakhar1998 View Post
Hydrogen as a fuel is excellent to power not only our cars, but possibly our homes in the future. Look at this guy: He is living the dream , No power bills ever http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...rogen-house/ .
Your post is one of the most important reasons why I love our forum so much.

Thanks for sharing.
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Old 12th December 2014, 16:26   #20
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Originally Posted by bullrun87 View Post
The only thing to bear in mind is that the production of Hydrogen itself causes lots of emissions. Currently the best way to produce Hydrogen commercially is by using naphtha or natural gas and these processes involve emission of greenhouse gases. But still hydrogen ends up costing several times as much as conventional fuels for refiners and producers. Perhaps the advancement of electrolytic processes may finally usher in the era of cheap and renewable energy in the form of hydrogen
Thanks for the info.

Any nascent technology will have its share of problems that need to be solved. Or worked around.

The end results are all that matter. A greener planet, in this case.

Thanks to Toyota for taking the initiative.:thumbup:
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Old 12th December 2014, 22:22   #21
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Default Re: Japan Report: Toyota Mirai Hydrogen Fuel Cell Car, and Toyota's Safety Technology

Does the picture where the "High pressure Hydrogen tank" is right beneath the rear occupant make anyone else quiver?
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Old 12th December 2014, 22:53   #22
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Default Re: Japan Report: Toyota Mirai Hydrogen Fuel Cell Car, and Toyota's Safety Technology

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Does the picture where the "High pressure Hydrogen tank" is right beneath the rear occupant make anyone else quiver?
Urban_Nomad: I had the exact same doubt and feeling.

So I had done some reading on this topic.


The Mirai has been crash tested. The Hydrogen tank is not only very strong but also has sensors to shut it down in the event of a leakage.

Additionally Hydrogen is a gas that dissipates much faster than petrol.
The wikipedia entry on The Hindenberg has the following comment:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindenburg_disaster

Quote:
Hydrogen fires are notable for being less destructive to immediate surroundings than gasoline explosions because of the buoyancy of H2, which causes heat of combustion to be released upwards more than circumferentially as the leaked mass ascends in the atmosphere; hydrogen fires are more survivable than fires of gasoline and of wood.[15] The hydrogen in the Hindenburg burned out within about 90 seconds.
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Old 13th December 2014, 00:43   #23
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Default Re: Japan Report: Toyota Mirai Hydrogen Fuel Cell Car, and Toyota's Safety Technology

It would be great to see a concerted effort from our government to bring in FCVs to India. For starters, waive off all import duties on such vehicles, CKUs and spare parts. Then provide adequate infrastructure at least in the metros. Oh I am dreaming too much these days.

This is great news. Good to see a commercially viable implementation of the FC technology in cars. Hope to see this car plying on our roads sooner than later.

Just a thought. Hydrogen production may not be very environmentally friendly. But it is definitely less toxic than all the machinery required to dig up oil from the depths of the planet. So it is definitely a step or two closer to the Green Utopia.

Thank you for making my day today - Great report BBlost.
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Old 13th December 2014, 03:59   #24
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Default Re: Japan Report: Toyota Mirai Hydrogen Fuel Cell Car, and Toyota's Safety Technology

I welcome the Mirai to this planet, guess one of the first commercially manufactured Hydrogen powered cars, wishing it the best as it holds a lot of promise, it feels beautiful to imagine a drive where you are not depleting the resources, currently I guess Hydrogen is mass produced from Methane, natural gas, so again indirectly is eating into the fuel reserves on this planet, but exciting times lie ahead never the less. Brilliantly compiled BBlost. Thank you. Totally loved reading about this.
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Old 13th December 2014, 10:47   #25
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Default Re: Japan Report: Toyota Mirai Hydrogen Fuel Cell Car, and Toyota's Safety Technology

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Originally Posted by bblost View Post
Urban_Nomad: I had the exact same doubt and feeling.


Additionally Hydrogen is a gas that dissipates much faster than petrol.
The wikipedia entry on The Hindenberg has the following comment:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindenburg_disaster
Yes I agree hydrogen will dissipate faster as it is much lighter than air. But hydrogen is not as safe in my opinion for these reasons.
1) It has a huge flammable limit 4 percent to 75 percent in air. So practically any leaked hydrogen will be flammable. flammable range of gasolene is 1 to 7 percent, hence its comparatively safe.
2) Hydrogen fires cant be seen
3) Hydrogen is odorless, colorless and tasteless, so human senses won’t help to detect a leak.
toyota though has done a commendable job to mitigate the safety issues of using hydrogen.
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Old 13th December 2014, 18:24   #26
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Default Re: Japan Report: Toyota Mirai Hydrogen Fuel Cell Car, and Toyota's Safety Technology

Before allowing FCVs in the country we must think how the infrastructure would be made available. Without that the only FCVs we shall import will be kept in museums.

To produce hydrogen commercially is a big challenge, especially when our country cannot yet provide charging stations for electric vehicles.

To set up the stations is another problem. Right now many of the petrol pumps are struggling with higher leases/rents by owners who want to sell off the land. We already have petrol, diesel, CNG and LPG being distributed through this infrastructure. Adding hydrogen to this mix would overburden this infrastructure.
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Old 15th December 2014, 09:55   #27
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Default Re: Japan Report: Toyota Mirai Hydrogen Fuel Cell Car, and Toyota's Safety Technology

One of ideas is to look at the base load vs peak load availability of electricity. Most of the developed countries have devised their electricity production facilities for peak demand and thus during off peak hours there grids are either at float (with frequency higher than 50 hz) or the plants are operated at part loads. Atleast in such conditions, the excess electricity could be used for production of Hydrogen (provided these countries are getting off peak electricity from clean sources like nuclear, wind, hydro etc).

The impact of climate change is global and thus even if the FCV's get a market in developed countries, it would be good for the reduction of overall emission load of the planet.

Cheers !

Last edited by i74js : 15th December 2014 at 10:13.
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Old 15th December 2014, 11:56   #28
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Default Re: Japan Report: Toyota Mirai Hydrogen Fuel Cell Car, and Toyota's Safety Technology

Respect the technology, respect the company and the folks who made the product a reality!

However, cannot resist wondering this "When will the recall on this model happen"??
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Old 16th December 2014, 09:58   #29
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Default Re: Japan Report: Toyota Mirai Hydrogen Fuel Cell Car, and Toyota's Safety Technology

Thanks for the informative report, bblost.
It's interesting to see a car with the by-product as H2O.

With regards to the point you mentioned about the silence on starting the car, i had the same shock the first time i drove a Reva, or even sat in my friend's hybrid Camry.
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Old 16th December 2014, 11:10   #30
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Default Re: Japan Report: Toyota Mirai Hydrogen Fuel Cell Car, and Toyota's Safety Technology

If "Steam Reforming" is the industrial way to produce Hydrogen , then we are basically using methane and steam to create hydrogen and CO2 -> So the while the user feels happy about not polluting the environment by using hydrogen, its not exactly environment friendly if you look at the process from source... Also, they will still have to run after methane and natural gas supplies.

Pl correct me if I am wrong - I hope there are cleaner ways to produce Hydrogen in mass scale. I am trying to imagine a scenario if 100% of automobiles run on hydrogen . While this is a very good start, I think the real innovation will be on how hydrogen can be made available in large scale, without depending on fossil fuels of any sort.

Water as the end product also offers endless possibilities - if all automobiles produce water, and if there is a way to build in a process to recycle that water effectively, that will be an added plus!
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