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Old 2nd February 2015, 20:53   #16
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Default re: Suzuki Celerio fails braking test in UK - Sales stopped!

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Originally Posted by Chetan_Rao View Post
Unless the fault is isolated to a specific production run (likely) or to a specific component supplier that's only used in one manufacturing location (unlikely for an economy car), it would make better sense for Suzuki to NOT avoid taking precautions in other markets, esp. India that accounts for a major chunk of their global sales.
Yes, in our industry, I have seen many cases where even a serious fault is traced back to a basic mistake at supplier / sub-supplier end.

But I am astonished that without proper investigation how Suzuki can say that fault is affecting only four countries; and presume that it may just be a manufacturing issue at Thailand plant or its supplier. Surely Suzuki is not performing a scram jet investigation and already pin-pointed the root cause to Thailand plant/ supplier. What if it is a design issue; for example: brake booster hydraulic circuit failure due to high fluid pressure under extreme braking condition; and brake fluid draining in the booster itself and thus no visible fluid leak ??

In India, Recalls or Sales Stop, for such serious faults, is still to be made mandatory under law. As of now it is only voluntary and manufacturers in India can carry on with the casual attitude because the legal ramifications for such actions are delayed and not severe.
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Old 2nd February 2015, 21:01   #17
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Default re: Suzuki Celerio fails braking test in UK - Sales stopped!

Different ABS (and associated add-ons) modules for the First World?

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Old 2nd February 2015, 21:10   #18
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Default re: Suzuki Celerio fails braking test in UK - Sales stopped!

Hope this is only related to UK market. But what if this is a design issue altogether. In that case every celerio is effected. Just to be safer, i think Maruti should investigate this as well.



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Originally Posted by Ajaybiz View Post
Happy to see them facing all this, when I complained about swift brakes issue they never listened to me and did one test of stopping the vehicle from 80 kmph to zero under certain distance and said that's our standard and we can't compare our cars with other manufacturer, these jokers are in team bhp and closely monitoring.
Happy that I am moving out of their pathetic cars and zero safety rated cars.
On a lighter note, sorry to say but there can be nothing wrong with a maruti. There service is good. Thats the solution to everything. One should not drive that above 80mph anyway. Why would you take the risk with a car that has ZERO NCAP ?
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Old 2nd February 2015, 22:32   #19
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Default re: Suzuki Celerio fails braking test in UK - Sales stopped!

Well if this impacts Celerios in UK then people will need to be extremely cautious about the Celerios in rest of the world as well. Both the crash test results and the effectiveness of the brake should be published asap for the Indian Celerios.
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Old 2nd February 2015, 22:49   #20
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Default re: Suzuki Celerio fails braking test in UK - Sales stopped!

Does it sound like a brake pad which due to extreme heat failed to retract or overheated itself onto the disc and the car just kept moving like there were no brakes ?

Anyway, someone with a Celerio here, please find an empty controlled environment kind of road and try it out.
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Old 2nd February 2015, 23:26   #21
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Default re: Suzuki Celerio fails braking test in UK - Sales stopped!

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Originally Posted by humyum View Post
Anyway, someone with a Celerio here, please find an empty controlled environment kind of road and try it out.
Let's not make an appeal to fellow members or other Celerio owners to try such stunts. The risks associated are way too high and I am sure this forum wouldn't want to be associated with any such risk.

If anyone should be setting up a controlled environment, and testing the Celerio, it should be Maruti.
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Old 3rd February 2015, 00:29   #22
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Default re: Suzuki Celerio fails braking test in UK - Sales stopped!

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Originally Posted by humyum View Post
Does it sound like a brake pad which due to extreme heat failed to retract or overheated itself onto the disc and the car just kept moving like there were no brakes ?

Anyway, someone with a Celerio here, please find an empty controlled environment kind of road and try it out.
I suspect the vacuum servo could be an issue.Probably the sudden and powerful braking punctures the diaphragm. Its like when you try to push the pedal when the engine is off. Overheating during such a test is not possible.
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Old 3rd February 2015, 00:37   #23
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Default re: Suzuki Celerio fails braking test in UK - Sales stopped!

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Originally Posted by Biraj View Post
Let's not make an appeal to fellow members or other Celerio owners to try such stunts. The risks associated are way too high and I am sure this forum wouldn't want to be associated with any such risk.

If anyone should be setting up a controlled environment, and testing the Celerio, it should be Maruti.
Of course, I am sure everyone who who has a Celerio is 18+ and mature enough to know what to do when.


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Originally Posted by spyder_p8 View Post
I suspect the vacuum servo could be an issue.Probably the sudden and powerful braking punctures the diaphragm. Its like when you try to push the pedal when the engine is off. Overheating during such a test is not possible.
True, puncturing the diaphragm could be the issue, but in that case there would no longer be a vaccume until the booster is replaced, we don't know if that is the case.

About overheating, I have braked from 140 to 0 during a hard braking exercise and during the end of the stopping, the pedal felt like a rock and there was absolutely no braking because of the overheated brake pad and discs, the car was just moving forward with all my weight on the brake pedal.

Anyway, these are just opinions, let's see what Suzuki guys come up with, but this for sure will take a hit on their reputation in UK as they anyway have a fragile one.
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Old 3rd February 2015, 09:46   #24
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Default Re: Suzuki Celerio fails braking test in UK - Sales stopped!

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Originally Posted by CliffHanger View Post
Sorry, I don't understand the point.

Celerio is being sold in India too and the reasons for the failure is still unknown.

I request all Celerio owners in India to exercise caution!
We can't be sure that Indian Celerios are affected until Maruti issues a statement.

It is common practice in the industry to have different specification parts for different markets. So the UK, Australia, NZ & Ireland all being first world markets with similar regulations, usage and testing practices all receive brake parts of a certain spec, while the Indian and SEA markets receive a different spec. This goes for suspension, lights, A/C, tyres, etc. Making it more confusing for consumers, the parts may be supplied by the same vendor and even look the same externally, differing only in a code number. There's a thread on the Tata Manza in which one of the members complained that Concorde motors replaced the suspension struts with a South Africa spec instead of the Indian spec. This resulted in poor ride.
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Old 3rd February 2015, 10:12   #25
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Default Re: Suzuki Celerio fails braking test in UK - Sales stopped!

What is scary is that automobile magazines, which are usually categorised under 'recreational' are now being quoted on issues that affect public safety.

While not belittling the tests they have conducted, shouldn't the results be ratified by a recognised public safety authority before they stop sales? There is no mention of any other tests in that article that quotes the 'independent' tests conducted by two magazines.

Allowing commercial entities to influence buying (or in this case, selling) decisions without
proper validation by an independent government body is not a healthy practice. It puts the power of fear, and therefore blackmail, in the hands of the media.

This is very much like the unsolicited testing of Indian vehicles by NCAP and the unilateral publication of those results - one does wonder whether there are vested interests involved. Would NCAP conduct free tests for the manufacturers if requested to do so again after 'rectifying' the issues noted in the original free and unsolicited test?

On the other hand, such tests also bring up questions on the original certification. What tests did the department of motor transport conduct before allowing the sale of these vehicles in the first place? Does it mean that they were incompetent if indeed it is proven that the vehicles did endanger the safety of its occupants?

Without proper answers from the statutory bodies, these unilateral tests by commercial bodies only seem to be driving an agenda - particularly at a time when Euro car makers are either struggling, or moving their production to emerging markets to stay relevant.
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Old 3rd February 2015, 10:18   #26
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Default Re: Suzuki Celerio fails braking test in UK - Sales stopped!

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Originally Posted by Motard_Blr View Post
We can't be sure that Indian Celerios are affected until Maruti issues a statement.
I think you are still unaware of how Indian Law system functions and how Industries take the system for a ride. Please don't expect any manufacturer to release such statements voluntarily.

Quote:
It is common practice in the industry to have different specification parts for different markets. So the UK, Australia, NZ & Ireland all being first world markets with similar regulations, usage and testing practices all receive brake parts of a certain spec, while the Indian and SEA markets receive a different spec. This goes for suspension, lights, A/C, tyres, etc. Making it more confusing for consumers, the parts may be supplied by the same vendor and even look the same externally, differing only in a code number. There's a thread on the Tata Manza in which one of the members complained that Concorde motors replaced the suspension struts with a South Africa spec instead of the Indian spec. This resulted in poor ride.
Nothing has been pinned to a reason. It could be anything from Manufacture area specific to Design specific. Hope you are aware of terms such as faulty Brake designs, ABS unit deisgns, etc.

If you are a Celerio owner, it doesn't matter in which part of the world you drive your Celerio, you better be careful.

Also, if you are driving your Celerio in a third world country, you may never hear anything from your Manufacturer on this issue. One day, you may suddenly receive a call from your service station on a free 51 point checkup and spares at 10% discount and additional discount coupons for future purchases, once you give the car and after the checkup is done, bills paid and coupons received. Life moves on, and the car moves on too!

Last edited by CliffHanger : 3rd February 2015 at 10:28.
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Old 3rd February 2015, 11:27   #27
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Default Re: Suzuki Celerio fails braking test in UK - Sales stopped!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steeroid View Post
What is scary is that automobile magazines, which are usually categorised under 'recreational' are now being quoted on issues that affect public safety.

While not belittling the tests they have conducted, shouldn't the results be ratified by a recognised public safety authority before they stop sales? There is no mention of any other tests in that article that quotes the 'independent' tests conducted by two magazines.

Allowing commercial entities to influence buying (or in this case, selling) decisions without
proper validation by an independent government body is not a healthy practice. It puts the power of fear, and therefore blackmail, in the hands of the media.

This is very much like the unsolicited testing of Indian vehicles by NCAP and the unilateral publication of those results - one does wonder whether there are vested interests involved. Would NCAP conduct free tests for the manufacturers if requested to do so again after 'rectifying' the issues noted in the original free and unsolicited test?

On the other hand, such tests also bring up questions on the original certification. What tests did the department of motor transport conduct before allowing the sale of these vehicles in the first place? Does it mean that they were incompetent if indeed it is proven that the vehicles did endanger the safety of its occupants?

Without proper answers from the statutory bodies, these unilateral tests by commercial bodies only seem to be driving an agenda - particularly at a time when Euro car makers are either struggling, or moving their production to emerging markets to stay relevant.

Its always better to be safe than sorry. The car could be tested by anybody but its the manufacturer who will decide on recall. In this case, Suzuki has verified the problem and hence this post. As far as the NCAP is concerned, we do believe them when they put 5 stars on a Hyundai. So why not when they put ZERO on some other car? This could be a isolated problem as well. There are millions of Suzukis running on the road i don't see them banging others
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Old 3rd February 2015, 11:49   #28
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Default Re: Suzuki Celerio fails braking test in UK - Sales stopped!

Quote:
Originally Posted by CliffHanger View Post
I think you are still unaware of how Indian Law system functions and how Industries take the system for a ride. Please don't expect any manufacturer to release such statements voluntarily.



Nothing has been pinned to a reason. It could be anything from Manufacture area specific to Design specific. Hope you are aware of terms such as faulty Brake designs, ABS unit deisgns, etc.

If you are a Celerio owner, it doesn't matter in which part of the world you drive your Celerio, you better be careful.

Also, if you are driving your Celerio in a third world country, you may never hear anything from your Manufacturer on this issue. One day, you may suddenly receive a call from your service station on a free 51 point checkup and spares at 10% discount and additional discount coupons for future purchases, once you give the car and after the checkup is done, bills paid and coupons received. Life moves on, and the car moves on too!
Why do you presume that I am unaware of the Indian situation? If there is a defect in a vehicle, the manufacturer has a legal obligation to correct the problem. Our government may not be proactive or responsive on consumer protection issues but our courts certainly are. If there is a known defect in a particular type of car, all it would take is one PIL to force the government and the manufacturer to acknowledge it and take action. Insurance companies are also stake holders and they too can force the issue if a compensation claim has been made where the vehicle involved was defective and the defect was the cause of the accident.

Maruti has been involved in many recalls and in my opinion have been more transparent than others in issuing public recalls. I've very rarely heard of other manufacturers issuing public recalls - they do it discretely when the cars arrive for service.
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Old 3rd February 2015, 12:32   #29
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Default Re: Suzuki Celerio fails braking test in UK - Sales stopped!

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Originally Posted by JayPrashanth View Post
The UK-spec Suzuki Celerio does NOT roll out from Maruti factories. It is sourced from Rayong, Thailand. Pulling Maruti Suzuki into the picture is unnecessary here.
I disagree that we shouldn't be concerned about the Indian Celerio.

For one, it's basically the same car with few changes here & there. Secondly, at best, India will have the same component quality. At worst, it'll be even inferior.

Clearly, this is a serious design defect. I'm hoping no Indian Celerio owner faces this problem on the highway.

When we tested the Celerio, no problems were faced in our emergency braking manouveur simulation. Equally, it wasn't from 130 kph (more like 80 - 100 kph IIRC).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Motard_Blr View Post
We can't be sure that Indian Celerios are affected until Maruti issues a statement.
Agreed. But this is the same company that insisted the Swift's brakes are splendid, despite our official review & hundreds of Swift LXi / LDi & VXi / VDi owners complaining about the same.

I care two hoots about Maruti's official statement.
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Old 3rd February 2015, 13:07   #30
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Default Re: Suzuki Celerio fails braking test in UK - Sales stopped!

Why is it that no body verified these claims in an Indian spec vehicle yet? It shouldn't be that difficult to do - considering that this is a rather straight forward test. Just need the brake discs to be cool before you start...

As far as authorities and NCAP is concerned, I assume they do a battery of safety tests as required like several collision tests but others like braking, acceleration and handling are done by reviewers. This situation is not unprecedented Anyone remember the moose test and A-Class controversy?

And regarding vested interests - sure, it's definitely possible but why are we assuming that's fact? What is clear is that lack of regulation lets manufacturers get away with flimsy/malfunctioning cars. A recall is less likely in india because there're no safety regulations and real and potential problems can be swept under the rug and dealt with only when there's a complaint. The recent Chevrolet Enjoy engine swaps raise that question.

On another note the Indian manufactured Celerio with two airbags (ZXi(O)) has a 4 star rating from LatinNCAP (where exports from India go).
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