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Old 3rd February 2015, 13:07   #31
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Default Re: Suzuki Celerio fails braking test in UK - Sales stopped!

Why is it that no body verified these claims in an Indian spec vehicle yet? It shouldn't be that difficult to do - considering that this is a rather straight forward test. Just need the brake discs to be cool before you start...

As far as authorities and NCAP is concerned, I assume they do a battery of safety tests as required like several collision tests but others like braking, acceleration and handling are done by reviewers. This situation is not unprecedented Anyone remember the moose test and A-Class controversy?

And regarding vested interests - sure, it's definitely possible but why are we assuming that's fact? What is clear is that lack of regulation lets manufacturers get away with flimsy/malfunctioning cars. A recall is less likely in india because there're no safety regulations and real and potential problems can be swept under the rug and dealt with only when there's a complaint. The recent Chevrolet Enjoy engine swaps raise that question.

On another note the Indian manufactured Celerio with two airbags (ZXi(O)) has a 4 star rating from LatinNCAP (where exports from India go).
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Old 3rd February 2015, 14:15   #32
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Default Re: Suzuki Celerio fails braking test in UK - Sales stopped!

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Originally Posted by Motard_Blr View Post
If there is a defect in a vehicle, the manufacturer has a legal obligation to correct the problem.
And who will prove the defect? Maruti themselves? Or shall we leave this to organization who actually does fair testing? I own a Maruti myself. The car has a wiring defect from day-0 of purchase. They replaced the wiring harness once in the warranty period. I have paid for the headlight fix million times after that.
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Old 3rd February 2015, 14:47   #33
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Default Re: Suzuki Celerio fails braking test in UK - Sales stopped!

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Originally Posted by spyder_p8 View Post
And who will prove the defect? Maruti themselves? Or shall we leave this to organization who actually does fair testing? I own a Maruti myself. The car has a wiring defect from day-0 of purchase. They replaced the wiring harness once in the warranty period. I have paid for the headlight fix million times after that.
You say that your car had a wiring problem from the beginning. You proved the defect by complaining to the ASC and them admitting the defect. Maruti replaced the entire wiring harness after accepting that there was a defect. Isn't this an act of respecting legal obligations?

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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
...
Agreed. But this is the same company that insisted the Swift's brakes are splendid, despite our official review & hundreds of Swift LXi / LDi & VXi / VDi owners complaining about the same.

I care two hoots about Maruti's official statement.
The issue with the Swift's brake performance is that it is under-par. But it probably meets existing regulation on brake performance. This is Maruti cutting costs and hiding behind the letter of the law rather than respecting the spirit of the law. Sadly, Maruti would win any argument about the brakes by pointing out that lakhs of people have bought and continue to buy the car, thereby laying their trust in it. I can think of a few solutions to this problem:

1. Government regulations must become stricter in specifying the maximum stopping distance. This is unlikely.

2. Government regulations must also include a new rule that limits the variation in performance between the best and the worst to something 95 percentile. This too is unlikely.

3. Team BHP, other forums and consumer associations must apply pressure on the government and the industry to improve safety. This would be a Ralph Nader type movement. This scenario is the most likely to succeed if consumer associations unite. This would be a wonderful situation that would empower the consumer against corporate greed but I'm afraid this might just be a pipe dream.
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Old 3rd February 2015, 15:33   #34
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Default Re: Suzuki Celerio fails braking test in UK - Sales stopped!

I think the safer assumption to make is to think that even Indian Celerios are affected, unless proven otherwise. I think that would be a safer assumption to make rather than to assume that Indian Celerios are not affected and to think that brakes would work fine at 100-130 km/hr.
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Old 3rd February 2015, 15:48   #35
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Default Re: Suzuki Celerio fails braking test in UK - Sales stopped!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Motard_Blr View Post
Maruti replaced the entire wiring harness after accepting that there was a defect. Isn't this an act of respecting legal obligations?
Dear Motard_Blr, I think you are confusing between two legal angles. In case a customer finds out a concern and manufacturer repairs / replaces the part, it is as per the legal (Guarantee / Warranty) agreement between the two.

But if such complaints increase (even if not highlighted on public platform) or if during internal review / testing (for facelift version etc) manufacturer finds out a concern; as of today there is no legal obligation to issue a recall / stop production. It is purely voluntary; and yes many car manufacturers have started to warm-up to this concept, but I can tell that many issues are still swept under the carpet.

In this particular case, I may accept that the design / supply chain for the affected parts might be different for India and elsewhere; and therefore Suzuki stopped production for certain destinations only. What I am surprised is the speed at which Suzuki has arrived to the root-cause of problem and pin-pointed it to only Thailand plant . I just hope there is no eye wash here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Motard_Blr View Post
The issue with the Swift's brake performance is that it is under-par. But it probably meets existing regulation on brake performance. This is Maruti cutting costs and hiding behind the letter of the law rather than respecting the spirit of the law.
What manufacturers do to pass the ARAI testing is an open secret. The 'in'Famous Golden car, high CoEF run-in tires and high CoEF brake pads for brake test, low rolling resistance tires for FE test, brake discs and drums machined to the lower spec limit etc. etc. The list is too long. The famous case of Tavera is a recent example.

So, let't not be naive to be taking about the spirit of law. Profit making is the only spirit. However, if the recent news is anything to go by, COP (Compliance of Performance) is being seriously looked into by the Government; which will empower the regulatory agencies (ARAI ??) to check the off-production vehicle from the assembly line PDI / stock-yard of the manufacturer after every fixed interval. This being followed in many countries and I hope good sense prevails in India government as well.

Last edited by AutoNoob : 3rd February 2015 at 15:50.
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Old 3rd February 2015, 16:25   #36
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Default Re: Suzuki Celerio fails braking test in UK - Sales stopped!

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Originally Posted by AutoNoob View Post
Dear Motard_Blr, I think you are confusing between two legal angles. In case a customer finds out a concern and manufacturer repairs / replaces the part, it is as per the legal (Guarantee / Warranty) agreement between the two.
The TBHP member complained about a problem that was resolved under warranty. This is a specific case and nothing to do with recalls.

Quote:
But if such complaints increase (even if not highlighted on public platform) or if during internal review / testing (for facelift version etc) manufacturer finds out a concern; as of today there is no legal obligation to issue a recall / stop production. It is purely voluntary; and yes many car manufacturers have started to warm-up to this concept, but I can tell that many issues are still swept under the carpet.
I agree with you - there should legislation to enforce recalls. To my knowledge, a recall, in countries where it is legislated, is only for safety related issues. So brakes fall in this category. But rusting parts would only be a safety issue if the rust caused a failure or under-performance of the vehicle to the extent of being dangerous.

Quote:
In this particular case, I may accept that the design / supply chain for the affected parts might be different for India and elsewhere; and therefore Suzuki stopped production for certain destinations only. What I am surprised is the speed at which Suzuki has arrived to the root-cause of problem and pin-pointed it to only Thailand plant . I just hope there is no eye wash here.
If the car was made in Suzuki's Thailand plant with parts specifically sourced for it, then is it hard to pinpoint the source?

Quote:
What manufacturers do to pass the ARAI testing is an open secret. The 'in'Famous Golden car, high CoEF run-in tires and high CoEF brake pads for brake test, low rolling resistance tires for FE test, brake discs and drums machined to the lower spec limit etc. etc. The list is too long. The famous case of Tavera is a recent example.
This is just plain cheating and gaming the system by the manufacturer. but what can we, the consumer, do about it when we don't even what's going on?

Quote:
So, let't not be naive to be taking about the spirit of law. Profit making is the only spirit. However, if the recent news is anything to go by, COP (Compliance of Performance) is being seriously looked into by the Government; which will empower the regulatory agencies (ARAI ??) to check the off-production vehicle from the assembly line PDI / stock-yard of the manufacturer after every fixed interval. This being followed in many countries and I hope good sense prevails in India government as well.
I think the appropriate word here is resignation and not naivete. We are resigned to the fact that nothing changes and the big guy always wins, unlike in the movies. Whether or not there is talk of change, there is little actual change.
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Old 3rd February 2015, 20:15   #37
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Default Re: Suzuki Celerio fails braking test in UK - Sales stopped!

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Originally Posted by GTO View Post

Agreed. But this is the same company that insisted the Swift's brakes are splendid, despite our official review & hundreds of Swift LXi / LDi & VXi / VDi owners complaining about the same.
Just to add to this, the ZDI spec has better brakes, if i recall correctly. Why do that? Why have better brake systems on lower spec? It's a question to be asked by everyone since brakes are fundamental to the safety of any car. No doubt Maruti is trying to cut corners to reduce prices and improve profits.
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Old 3rd February 2015, 21:10   #38
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Default Re: Suzuki Celerio fails braking test in UK - Sales stopped!

Quote:
Originally Posted by sudeepg View Post
Just to add to this, the ZDI spec has better brakes, if i recall correctly. Why do that? Why have better brake systems on lower spec? It's a question to be asked by everyone since brakes are fundamental to the safety of any car. No doubt Maruti is trying to cut corners to reduce prices and improve profits.
I have always felt the Z or equivalent spec in most manufacturers have better brake feel, but always felt it was a perception issue. Since you mentioned it in print, I concur.

Has any of our own Celerio riders any experience of brake performance at 100kmph or so? First hand feedback would be appreciated.
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Old 3rd February 2015, 23:10   #39
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Default Re: Suzuki Celerio fails braking test in UK - Sales stopped!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Motard_Blr View Post
If the car was made in Suzuki's Thailand plant with parts specifically sourced for it, then is it hard to pinpoint the source
As I said, I am surprised by the speed of investigation. Consider these points :
1. Faulty parts are available in cars in UK
2. Manufacturing and supplier base is in Thailand
3. Design Center is in Japan

I have seen many practical cases in which following steps take considerably more time than what Suzuki has taken to arrive to this decision:
1. getting investigation parts quickly (through the logistics & customs),
2. establishing the investigation team (Engineering and Quality)
3. plant and supplier audit
4. pin pointing the root cause - design or part quality

In case it is a precautionary decision till investigation is completed, why not cover all regions. If Suzuki is able to pull-off such a speedy investigation, then hats-off to them.
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Old 3rd February 2015, 23:15   #40
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Default Re: Suzuki Celerio fails braking test in UK - Sales stopped!

Its time that all automotive manufacturers come under one world body like FIFA that should oversee all aspects related to automobiles. The body should make sure that every manufacturer anywhere in the world adheres to its standards instead of depending on governments. We all know how F1 races are held under strict rules irrespective of the place of race. So why not apply the same to car sales? Just like F1 teams are fined heavily for violations, car manufacturers should be fined heavily.. Only then the world would get better cars.

Also I don't understand why different countries have their own crash testing like Euro NCAP, Chinese NCAP, etc. Is the value of a human life different in different countries?
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Old 3rd February 2015, 23:18   #41
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Default Re: Suzuki Celerio fails braking test in UK - Sales stopped!

Quote:
Originally Posted by sudeepg View Post
Just to add to this, the ZDI spec has better brakes, if i recall correctly. Why do that? Why have better brake systems on lower spec? It's a question to be asked by everyone since brakes are fundamental to the safety of any car. No doubt Maruti is trying to cut corners to reduce prices and improve profits.
ZDI has better brakes because of EBD. I have a VDI version of the Swift which is a 2008 model, I had to fight my life out of Maruti to replace the brake booster in my car which had a different calibration in the front/rear brake bias as compared to what came with my car. Now my brakes are perfect since some years ever since the replacement, but it's so stupid to not replace it for all the Swift Diesel that came with sub standard brakes, but that's the government's job to force manufacturers to do that and as well as the manufacturers to have a liability for the product they have sold.

In the current version L and V versions of the Swift Diesel, GOD help you if you have 5 people in the car and need to brake hard, the wheels will never lock, even if you put Yokozuna on the brake pedal, that poor.

I admire Hyundai in this matter, perfect brakes for cars even in the lower versions. I personally believe, over servoed brakes are better than under servoed one. With good tyres, your stopping distance drastically improves in over servoed brakes.
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Old 4th February 2015, 04:12   #42
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Default Re: Suzuki Celerio fails braking test in UK - Sales stopped!

Having done almost 9000 km, I never had any issue with the brakes. But then, I never had to brake hard while cruising over 100. In fact, I think its better than my Swift D.

Last edited by GTO : 5th February 2015 at 09:47. Reason: Typo
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Old 4th February 2015, 09:09   #43
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Default Re: Suzuki Celerio fails braking test in UK - Sales stopped!

Braking in Maruti has never been its forte. After having owned and driven almost all cars from Maruti, below are my observations:

1. Our Zen Vxi 2005 MPFi model had poor braking system. At one point, we were thinking of replacing the same with Esteem D's brakes.
2. Alto k10's braking is even worse. Do not know if it is particular to this car but we have repeatedly asked the service center to correct it during the first 2 services but there has been no improvement. I have consulted a few friends/colleagues who own Alto k10 and all of them are under the conclusion that braking in k10 is equally bad especially at speeds above 80kmph and with more load.
3. I had 2-3 bad experiences in my friend's Swift Ldi as well where the car would not stop at emergency situations swerving badly and the tires skidding badly. Add wet roads to it and you are calling for a disaster.
4. Last month, I was driving a Swift Dzire ZXi with ABS and was under the impression that brakes would be superb. Donot know if it is me or if there was any fault with the particular car, but the brakes felt spongy from the start.
5. I have always admired Hyundai and braking is leagues ahead in terms of Maruti. Even in low segment cars strating Santro, i10 and i20 - brakes are adequate.

All the above observations are purely based on my driving experiences and does not mean to offend any body.
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Old 4th February 2015, 13:24   #44
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Default Re: Suzuki Celerio fails braking test in UK - Sales stopped!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Motard_Blr View Post
The issue with the Swift's brake performance is that it is under-par. But it probably meets existing regulation on brake performance.
Existing legislation on brakes . There is none! The current rule would basically say 'car should stop when brake pedal is pressed'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by latentpotential View Post
I have always felt the Z or equivalent spec in most manufacturers have better brake feel, but always felt it was a perception issue. Since you mentioned it in print, I concur.
It's different for the Swift. The Z variants get a different, more effective brake booster.

In other car models, you probably felt it because of the bigger wheel / wider tyres of top variants?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CarNerd View Post
Its time that all automotive manufacturers come under one world body like FIFA that should oversee all aspects related to automobiles. The body should make sure that every manufacturer anywhere in the world adheres to its standards instead of depending on governments. We all know how F1 races are held under strict rules irrespective of the place of race. So why not apply the same to car sales?
I don't think this is possible due to jurisdictions. Forget the car industry, there's hardly a common global regulatory body for anything (e.g. banking, insurance etc.). Each country has its own watchdog.
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Old 4th February 2015, 13:40   #45
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Default Re: Suzuki Celerio fails braking test in UK - Sales stopped!

Reading this bit of news , a few questions
1) Doesn't Suzuki Thailand test their cars before they ship out ? Quality for export are mostly, usually stricter and much more tighter and full proof in most car companies.

2) Why aren't the Thai users facing similar issues ?

3) Is the testing inadequate ? For instance in colder climates like in UK the Thai made cars might have components that are causing failures. But again it comes back to point 1.

4) Is the brake design faulty and globally implemented ? Could that cause even Indian cars to fail also ?
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