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Old 4th February 2015, 14:06   #46
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Default Re: Suzuki Celerio fails braking test in UK - Sales stopped!

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Originally Posted by Sutripta View Post
Different ABS (and associated add-ons) modules for the First World?
2 tester cars fail extreme braking tests one after the other.

Car has just gone on sale in UK since February 1, 2015 - just about 100 sold in UK, 40 in Ireland, and an yet unknown number in Australia & NZ, where it went on sale last year. (http://www.bbc.com/news/business-31093206).

All versions on sale in UK/Ireland/Australia/NZ come with ABS, EBD, brake assist and electronic stability program - all features that electronically control the brakes. In India only the Zxi version has just ABS as an optional extra. Thai versions only have ABS+EBD in the CVT versions - no ABS in the MT version.

No reported case of brake failure in non-ABS versions from India / Thailand despite the vehicles being on sale for almost a year in either country.

That should explain why the Indian and Thai Celerio have not been affected by the recall.
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Old 4th February 2015, 14:09   #47
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Default Re: Suzuki Celerio fails braking test in UK - Sales stopped!

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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Existing legislation on brakes . There is none! The current rule would basically say 'car should stop when brake pedal is pressed'.
...
You are being overly cynical about the system in India. Indian standards and homolgation tests follow standards are based on globally accepted standards issued by bodies such as EEC (Europe) and DOT (USA). These test are compulsory.

Braking performance tests in India are covered under IS:11852-(last revised in 2001) Automotive Vehicles - Brakes and Braking Systems. The standard is broken up into 8 parts covering terminology, test procedures, features, functions, special requirements, etc. Part 3 specifically deals with performance requirements and evaluation.

Among many others things, the standard states that a car with less than 8 seats (M1 category vehicle) must stop in a distance less than given by:

Quote:
S = (0.1V + V^2)/130,

where S = stopping distance V = max. speed of vehicle or 160 km/h, whichever is less.
Therefore from 130 km/h, the car must stop in less than 130 metres.

I urge you to look up the standard. It's extensive and a very heavy read like most technical standards but a quick look would be very informative.

Also refer:
Society of Indian Automobile Manufacturers (SIAM): Rules
Attached PDF from ARAI - List of tests for certification

PS: I'm not in the automobile industry. The information that I typed above is from a short session on Google.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf ARAI 4WHEELER_M1_Vehicle _PETROL_DIESEL.pdf (28.7 KB, 608 views)
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Old 4th February 2015, 14:37   #48
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Default Re: Suzuki Celerio fails braking test in UK - Sales stopped!

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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Existing legislation on brakes . There is none! The current rule would basically say 'car should stop when brake pedal is pressed'.
GTO, totally agreed that the legislation in our country is inadequate (to put it mildly), but everything from the brakes to tyres to electricals come under legislation. Of course in India, these are very basic and not difficult at all to pass, unless we are talking about hopeless age-old vehicles like Ambassadors or Omnis (which have been modified in the past to meet regulations).

Every vehicle has to pass homologation tests covered under CMVR and IS regulations. For brakes, the regulation is IS 11852.

Like most automotive regulations in India, IS 11852 is also pretty much a copy-paste job from the corresponding ECE regulation (in this case ECE R13H). I am talking about the ECE regulation from say, around 15 years ago.

If you Google IS 11852, you can find all the chapters which include required performance (deceleration, stopping distance, pedal force etc) for passenger cars, trucks, ABS etc.

Sorry if I went too off-topic. Cheers.

Oops, just now saw the post from Motard_Blr.

Last edited by Viju : 4th February 2015 at 14:39.
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Old 5th February 2015, 13:07   #49
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Default Re: Suzuki Celerio fails braking test in UK - Sales stopped!

Informative @Motard_Blr

Why are we quick to see everything foreign as good? Road behavior, driving patterns, highway system and users et. el. define what the standards and testing should be.
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Old 5th February 2015, 20:40   #50
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Default Re: Suzuki Celerio fails braking test in UK - Sales stopped!

80mph=130kmph; actually fairly high speed (beyond any posted speed limits in the U.S., and as much as their high-speed Interstates were ever designed to accommodate) so maybe not quite that “simple“. Anyway, I don‘t think we‘re talking about manufacturing defects / components with poor tolerance controls, etc, in which case failure would more likely affect one or two wheels at most; If indeed failure was “total“ (vs some braking force remaining on two or even all wheels) then I really do wonder. All cars have dual-circuit master cylinders, so a total loss of pressure in both is unlikely.

Loss could SEEM near-total if the pedal went low and operator failed to push it further towards the floor (which of course also should not happen, but still, “total“ is a suspect word here).

Wild guess: brake fluid boiled in the front circuit due to overheated calipers (low-grade /adulterated or expired fluid at simplest, undersized/ under-ventilated (i.e., under-designed, at least for EU road conditions) discs at worst; also the possibility of low-grade friction materials). Though hard to believe a single “panic stop“ from 130 would normally cause anything beyond serious fade.

How do rotor diameters compare to other U.K. market cars? Was the actual test procedure / specific symptoms of failure divulged by testing staff (i.e. was the failure temporary (corrected after cool-down) or permanent (actual hard-component damage) or did the ABS codes set / electronics crash or???? If we‘re lacking basic info, anecdotal complaints about the manufacturer in general will be hard to properly apply to the situation;

That said, Indian O.E.‘s aspiring to sell in other markets are really going to have to be careful to create more globally compatible designs; in the end it will only make sense - even economically - to manufacture the improved products for the home market, as well, as conditions and requirements evolve. And that will be good for India. May take time, but it WILL happen. Meanwhile, no need to despair. Know your priorities and requirements when you buy, then accept your car‘s limitations (they ALL HAVE THEM!) and drive accordingly.

A final note: Back when speeds on U.S. roads averaged what they do in India today, I'm pretty sure that most American cars were much, much less capable in terms of braking performance / handling than anything currently on offer on the Indian market. And even now in 2015 in that land, where people simply LOVE speed, situations where an 80mph full-on panic stop is called for are practically non-existent.

Thanks, Eric

Last edited by ringoism : 5th February 2015 at 21:05.
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Old 6th February 2015, 09:04   #51
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Default Re: Suzuki Celerio fails braking test in UK - Sales stopped!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ringoism View Post
did the ABS codes set / electronics crash or????
Hello Eric, agree to most of your points except this one. ABS failure (software or hardware) will not affect base brake performance. It will only shut down the ABS function. I cannot imagine an ABS (in this case ESC) failure causing the phenomenon experienced by the testers. It would probably be something simpler, like a vacuum booster or foundation brake failure.
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Old 8th February 2015, 20:49   #52
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Default Re: Suzuki Celerio fails braking test in UK - Sales stopped!

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Originally Posted by shortbread View Post
2 magazines that have conducted emergency brake tests on Suzuki Celerio (Made at Suzuki's Rayang, Thailand factory) have failed a straightforward emergency brake test from 80 mph.
Since the same car is being sold in India by Maruti Suzuki, the Risk is very imminent for the fellow drivers in India.

A request: Is it possible for team-bhp review team to try this test and share the expert view on how good or bad the cars in India are?

Also, why does Autocar India not bother with doing the same tests in India is it that such safety requirements are not needed in India?

Regards,
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Old 9th February 2015, 12:19   #53
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Default Re: Suzuki Celerio fails braking test in UK - Sales stopped!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Higgs_Boson_i View Post
Since the same car is being sold in India by Maruti Suzuki, the Risk is very imminent for the fellow drivers in India.

A request: Is it possible for team-bhp review team to try this test and share the expert view on how good or bad the cars in India are?

Also, why does Autocar India not bother with doing the same tests in India is it that such safety requirements are not needed in India?

Regards,
It was surprising that Autocar India did not mention the issue, albeit it was for thai Celerios. With one of the largest marketing budgets in corporate India most Indian press would not like to fall foul with the Indian giant.

Suzuki has been really quiet about the whole incident. But the negative press will not do it any good, especially considering suzuki's shrinking global car business! Most likely result is that the incident will be forgotten with time allowing the maker to sweep it under the carpet.
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Old 9th February 2015, 17:06   #54
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Default Re: Suzuki Celerio fails braking test in UK - Sales stopped!

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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Existing legislation on brakes . There is none! The current rule would basically say 'car should stop when brake pedal is pressed'.



It's different for the Swift. The Z variants get a different, more effective brake booster.
...
Really? Is this documented anywhere? Do share more details! What about the Ertiga then? Same thing?
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Old 9th February 2015, 23:26   #55
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Default Re: Suzuki Celerio fails braking test in UK - Sales stopped!

Suzuki has an update on the Celerio braking issue.

Quote:
In an update on the investigation, a Suzuki spokesperson told Autocar: “We have a solution to the problem. It has been worked on within Suzuki Motor Corporation; this is its answer.”
...
It is understood that the failure is within the brake pedal assembly and that the affected part is only fitted to right-hand-drive Celerios sold in the UK, the Republic of Ireland, Australia and New Zealand.
...
See full article here: http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/ne...ailure-updated
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Old 10th February 2015, 07:04   #56
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Default Suzuki Celerio fails braking test in UK - Sales stopped!

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Originally Posted by Steeroid View Post
What is scary is that automobile magazines, which are usually categorised under 'recreational' are now being quoted on issues that affect public safety.

While not belittling the tests they have conducted, shouldn't the results be ratified by a recognised public safety authority before they stop sales?

This is very much like the unsolicited testing of Indian vehicles by NCAP and the unilateral publication of those results

Help! I read and re read your post and concluded you are not being sarcastic. And hence decided to respond. Your faith in government agencies is touching and misplaced. In most of the world, government agencies are by far behind the curve, and it's independent private agencies that identify flaws in products. I trust user reviews more than magazines (though car manufacturers are lurking on forums like these as well trying to manipulate our views), and magazines which need to maintain credibility with readers more than the government. Of course the magazine has no legal ability to force a product withdrawal - but it can call for one, and sensible companies would respond positively to that, as Suzuki seems to have done here.

Last edited by Hayek : 10th February 2015 at 07:07.
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Old 10th February 2015, 09:34   #57
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Default Re: Suzuki Celerio fails braking test in UK - Sales stopped!

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Originally Posted by Hayek View Post
Help! I read and re read your post and concluded you are not being sarcastic. And hence decided to respond. Your faith in government agencies is touching and misplaced. In most of the world, government agencies are by far behind the curve, and it's independent private agencies that identify flaws in products. I trust user reviews more than magazines (though car manufacturers are lurking on forums like these as well trying to manipulate our views), and magazines which need to maintain credibility with readers more than the government. Of course the magazine has no legal ability to force a product withdrawal - but it can call for one, and sensible companies would respond positively to that, as Suzuki seems to have done here.
The sad fact in India is that we in India need to judiciary to intervene in policy and enforcement matters in almost every field. Filing a public interest litigation case will ensure that government and the parties at fault take notice and are forced to act. But this is not the way that things should work.

What's perplexing is that there are some quasi-governmental regulatory bodies such as the TRAI and Competition Commision of India that APPEAR to be proactive and transparent. These two have done some good work and have somehow managed to remain fairly independent. We need something on the same lines to regulate transportation safety in India.

We TBHP members keep stating how influential Team BHP has become. There's evidence that this influence has had some benefits to some members who have had problems with their cars. If this influence needs to become stronger to become a strong voice of consumers, I think that the informal structure of the community needs to become more formal. Ideally, Team BHP would have the sort of influence that Consumer Reports does in the USA.
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Old 10th February 2015, 09:41   #58
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Default Re: Suzuki Celerio fails braking test in UK - Sales stopped!

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post

It's different for the Swift. The Z variants get a different, more effective brake booster.

In other car models, you probably felt it because of the bigger wheel / wider tyres of top variants?
It was same for the Figo IIRC, but not as exaggerated. Ask anyone who has driven the Z and the V/L variant, the difference is eye-opening. I am unsure as to how safe/unsafe the L/V varaint brake is, they don't help in making me comfortable, either as a passenger or driver. Sorry, but this is the way I feel.

Coming from a Yeti/Figo to a Fortuner/Scorpio, I have to consider their not so good braking ability. Yes, they may cut in with the existing norms, but there can be panicky situation because they cut corners.

High time, some one pokes some sense to existing Government Officials, there was some hope with the sad demise of Gopinath Munde Ji, but I don't see any initiave nowadays on Government's part to make our roads safer.

The court is issuing fatwas (tints/no plates) but absolutely no one stops/fines/challans traffic coming in the wrong direction, non working of tail lamps of HCV's or simply isn't forcing the existing rules to make our roads safer.

Till, there is a will from Government side or some one files petitions, I see no hope.
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Old 10th February 2015, 10:14   #59
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Default Re: Suzuki Celerio fails braking test in UK - Sales stopped!

Maruti Celerio brakes not faulty confirms Autocar India test.

Quote:
Quote:
Repeated tests conducted by us find no fault with the India-made Maruti Celerio's braking system.
Autocar India’s emergency braking tests are normally conducted from 80kph to a standstill, however for in this we raised the speed to 130kph or 80mph to match the parameters of Autocar UK’s full-force braking test, which resulted in brake failure in the UK car.

However, the Maruti Celerio took 77.18 meters and 5.84 seconds to smoothly come to a halt from 130kph and while these figures are not segment best, the Celerio’s ABS-equipped brakes worked reliably even after multiple tests.

Though the Indian made Celerios are not affected by the recall, Maruti is understood to be conducting its own investigation just to be sure

http://www.autocarindia.com/auto-new...st-393248.aspx

Last edited by volkman10 : 10th February 2015 at 10:15.
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Old 10th February 2015, 10:17   #60
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Default Re: Suzuki Celerio fails braking test in UK - Sales stopped!

Brakes of Indian Celerio are not faulty, confirm Autocar India.

Maruti is also conducting independent test though it is confirmed there is no issue with Indian Celerio.

Source:
http://www.autocarindia.com/auto-new...st-393248.aspx
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