Go Back   Team-BHP > BHP Worldwide > The International Automotive Scene


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 27th August 2015, 11:02   #1
BHPian
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 81
Thanked: 99 Times
Default 10 automakers sued over keyless ignition not switching engine off

Source:

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/...ors_picks=true

What do you guys think on this??
GRAND23 is online now   (4) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 27th August 2015, 11:34   #2
Senior - BHPian
 
ghodlur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Thane
Posts: 5,040
Thanked: 2,077 Times
Red face re: 10 automakers sued over keyless ignition not switching engine off

I really don't get the connect. If the car owner fails to switch off the engine and inhales carbon monoxide when using the car again, how can a car make be used for keyless ignition. Second question is how does CO build inside a car if the engine is running unless the windows/door are kept open?

Don't the vehicles provided with push button start stop also provide a warning if the engine is running over a specified time and vehicle is stationary? Sorry if the above argument feels childish.
ghodlur is online now   (4) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 27th August 2015, 11:51   #3
GTO
Team-BHP Support
 
GTO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Bombay
Posts: 47,735
Thanked: 89,310 Times
Default Re: 10 automakers sued over keyless ignition not switching engine off

Quote:
According to the complaint filed in Los Angeles federal court, carbon monoxide is emitted when drivers leave their vehicles running after taking their electronic key fobs with them, under the mistaken belief that the engines will shut off.


Hilarious - As they say, Americans will sue for anything. If you forget to switch the engine off, how is the manufacturer responsible? What next?

- My car didn't automatically roll up its windows. It got stolen. GM owes me money.

- The handbrake didn't automatically engage after I parked the car in neutral. Toyota has to pay me 10 million.

- The headlamps didn't automatically turn off, draining my battery, due to which I was late for an important meeting and I lost my job. Subaru has to compensate me for the time I was unemployed.

Now you know why we have all those warnings and terms & conditions.
GTO is offline   (23) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 27th August 2015, 13:49   #4
BHPian
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Coimbatore
Posts: 695
Thanked: 872 Times
Default Re: 10 automakers sued over keyless ignition not switching engine off

Nowadays, car owners get pampered a lot that they are having a mistaken belief that when they leave the car, along with the key, everything else will be taken care by the car itself!
After all, with keyless entry, if he can walk in and out of the car, without actually locking or unlocking anything physically, I think he can expect the following as well, without any action on his part:
Car should sense the key moving out of range, and the occupants leaving the car (by some kind of weight sensors on the seats?), and then self park itself into a safe parking spot using its rear and forward cameras & sensors, then automatically engage the parking brake, roll up the windows, auto fold ORVMs, switch off the engine, switch off the lights etc!
(Through advanced tech all these will be actually possible in some years, and the lawsuits only serve as the hints for the additional features expected by the buyers!)

And how about some more convenience features:
a) If the owner drives into a petrol bunk and stands in front of a pump, the sensors (which ones??), in combination with maps, should open the nozzle automatically.
b) If the driver sleeps on his seat, automatically the car should engage in self-drive mode, and take him to a safe corner and park. Then the car can play alarm or other tricks (such as using tilt/telescopic adjustments of the steering wheel in different combinations) to wake him up with a coffee (A coffee vending machine can be installed and can be connected to the Driver drowsiness detection systems).
c) There should be a memory in the car to remember the names of places and destinations as the owner is likely to forget where to go.

The once funny expectations by users turn out to be useful / mandatory features a decade later. Proof? Keyless entry!
hybridpetrol is offline   (5) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 27th August 2015, 13:59   #5
BHPian
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 308
Thanked: 179 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post


Hilarious - As they say, Americans will sue for anything. If you forget to switch the engine off, how is the manufacturer responsible? What next?

- My car didn't automatically roll up its windows. It got stolen. GM owes me money.

.
A worker falls off an under construction building and he died. The builder was sued and voila!!! The builder is fined and we have new rules regarding safety requirements to be followed for under-construction building. Wasn't that the workers responsibility to be watchful???

It might feel hilarious, but these suits bring new rules and regulations for our own safety. May be the way the news is portrayed could be hilarious, definitely not the suit. They have sued the manufacturers for negligence for not providing a simple engine shut off solution. I myself had multiple bad experiences due keyless start-stop system in my Cruze. Once my key fell off my pocket while leaving from my Blr home and realised it only when I stopped my car at Krishnagiri >100kms away. I had to take a bus back to Bangalore to collect my key, came back all the way to start my car again. Second instance, my friend forgot to hand over the key and I got stuck mid way. How many times I wished I could take on GM for not providing a stop feature when key is not inside the car. It is such a simple feature to implement and yet they didnt want to do it. Definitely, I cannot sue GM for this.

But in above case, actual death have occurred due to CO inhalation which could have been avoided if such a stop feature was available. At times even my car doesn't switch off with a single press of the button. I have to press harder a second time to switch off the engine. Luckily mine is diesel and the engine sound always helps. Think of an american with a closed garage and a silent petrol engine. A car running overnight in a closed garage is deadly.

It is the duty of manufacturers to fix things/features if it causes frequent mistake/oversight with end users. Even in India, we have cases where the manufacturer (rare in auto industry though) has been fined and asked to fix things if the system is such that the oversight of end user can cause death.

Last edited by Holyghost : 27th August 2015 at 14:03.
Holyghost is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 27th August 2015, 15:28   #6
BHPian
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 92
Thanked: 80 Times
Default Re: 10 automakers sued over keyless ignition not switching engine off

Quote:
But in above case, actual death have occurred due to CO inhalation which could have been avoided if such a stop feature was available. At times even my car doesn't switch off with a single press of the button. I have to press harder a second time to switch off the engine. Luckily mine is diesel and the engine sound always helps. Think of an american with a closed garage and a silent petrol engine. A car running overnight in a closed garage is deadly.

It is the duty of manufacturers to fix things/features if it causes frequent mistake/oversight with end users. Even in India, we have cases where the manufacturer (rare in auto industry though) has been fined and asked to fix things if the system is such that the oversight of end user can cause death.
I guess there is a difference between a feature and a function.
It seems that law suit is for a feature that was not available in the cars.
I could agree with the suit if this was advertised as a function in the car and if it did not work as intended. But that's not the case here.
praveen_n is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th August 2015, 16:23   #7
Senior - BHPian
 
lamborghini's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Mumbai
Posts: 4,636
Thanked: 1,263 Times
Default Re: 10 automakers sued over keyless ignition not switching engine off

Quote:
Originally Posted by Holyghost View Post
A worker falls off an under construction building and he died. The builder was sued and voila!!! The builder is fined and we have new rules regarding safety requirements to be followed for under-construction building. Wasn't that the workers responsibility to be watchful???

But in above case, actual death have occurred due to CO inhalation which could have been avoided if such a stop feature was available. At times even my car doesn't switch off with a single press of the button. I have to press harder a second time to switch off the engine. Luckily mine is diesel and the engine sound always helps. Think of an american with a closed garage and a silent petrol engine. A car running overnight in a closed garage is deadly.

It is the duty of manufacturers to fix things/features if it causes frequent mistake/oversight with end users. Even in India, we have cases where the manufacturer (rare in auto industry though) has been fined and asked to fix things if the system is such that the oversight of end user can cause death.
Firstly, a builder is responsible for the people who work under him, and is expected to have basic safety measures in place. Similarly, if a mechanic working on a car gets hurt because he didn't take basic safety into consideration - the garage would be responsible as it's duty is to enforce the basic level of safety.
A more apt example would be if a resident falls out of his open window, and sues the builder because the windows were transparent.

Secondly, keyless entry is meant to be a convenience feature. No where does it say that the car will switch off if the key is removed from the car. The onus lies on the customer, the same way the resident should remember if he left the window open or closed.
The reasoning behind the keyless entry is to make it more convenient (not safer) for the user, who might have their hands full or key tucked away somewhere.
Lastly, the push button to start the engine, also has stop written on it generally.
As for US garages, I have seen a few, and honestly - one needs to be hard of hearing to realize that the engine hasn't shut down. Petrols are more refined than diesels no doubt - but they aren't noiseless electric engines. In fact, the noise should be more pronounced in quieter garages!

As for the Cruze - whenever giving the car to anyone but yourself, remind them to keep the key in the centre console. In the Audi - the driver puts the key in the bottle holder next to the centre armrest, or in a designated spot at home/office. Helps a lot with the confusion!

BTW: When the key is removed from a running car, doesn't an audible warning pop-up?

Alternate scenarios: You are driving, and someone breaks into your car and steals your key fob (similar to how mobiles are stolen at traffic signals). Should the car just switch off then and there, and unlock all the doors? Wouldn't that put you at higher risk of getting mugged?
Or what if you are on a drive, and end up fighting with your better half and she flings the closest object out of the window (possibly the key?). Should the engine just switch off and result in a potential accident?
A more likely scenario - you have the key in your pocket, and have to make a stop somewhere. There is a child in the baby seat at the back (or a pet, or family or friends), and it's an awfully hot day outside. If they are in the car, while you stop for a few minutes - say going to the bank or grocery shopping - you wouldn't want the car switching off after 2 minutes, and letting them suffer in the heat. Even that can be fatal!

Cars are getting smarter - the A6 engages the handbrake the minute the gear is in P, and the door is opened. Most cars come with parking sensors, but if you ignore the beeps and reverse into something - can you sue the manufacturer because the car didn't stop on its own?
Quote:
Originally Posted by hybridpetrol View Post
The once funny expectations by users turn out to be useful / mandatory features a decade later. Proof? Keyless entry!
It's keyless entry, not keyless exit.

Last edited by lamborghini : 27th August 2015 at 16:31.
lamborghini is online now   (3) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 27th August 2015, 17:13   #8
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Mumbai
Posts: 3,717
Thanked: 425 Times
Default Re: 10 automakers sued over keyless ignition not switching engine off

Because of all this sueing by American's, human beings are getting dumber because cars/gadgets are expected to have common sense and gadgets/cars are getting more complex and hence more difficult & expensive to fix if something goes wrong.

Do you have to be a NASA scientist to know that the Engine Start/Stop button has to be pressed to turn off the engine? It says Engine Start /STOP too doesn't it?
amit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th August 2015, 17:17   #9
BHPian
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 308
Thanked: 179 Times
Default

I still don't understand why are the manufacturers so adamant that the engine should continue to run when key is not inside the car? Millions of people with manual keys do not have issues when engine switches off while removing the key. Then why is keyless cars have to be different?
Holyghost is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th August 2015, 18:00   #10
Senior - BHPian
 
kiku007's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 1,610
Thanked: 1,223 Times
Default Re: 10 automakers sued over keyless ignition not switching engine off

Quote:
Originally Posted by Holyghost View Post
I myself had multiple bad experiences due keyless start-stop system in my Cruze. Once my key fell off my pocket while leaving from my Blr home and realised it only when I stopped my car at Krishnagiri >100kms away. I had to take a bus back to Bangalore to collect my key, came back all the way to start my car again. Second instance, my friend forgot to hand over the key and I got stuck mid way. How many times I wished I could take on GM for not providing a stop feature when key is not inside the car. It is such a simple feature to implement and yet they didnt want to do it. Definitely, I cannot sue GM for this.
Perhaps an alarm (inside) and/or turning on blinkers (outside) when the car isn't able to detect the key fob would have helped.

I would prefer that to car shutting down the engine by itself.
kiku007 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th August 2015, 18:19   #11
Senior - BHPian
 
1100D's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Calcutta
Posts: 4,179
Thanked: 2,359 Times
Default Re: 10 automakers sued over keyless ignition not switching engine off

Quote:
Originally Posted by kiku007 View Post
Perhaps an alarm (inside) and/or turning on blinkers (outside) when the car isn't able to detect the key fob would have helped.

I would prefer that to car shutting down the engine by itself.
And, my Basic Mahindra gets into a hysteria each time it fails to see its own stepney anywhere near it.
1100D is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th August 2015, 09:44   #12
Senior - BHPian
 
kiku007's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 1,610
Thanked: 1,223 Times
Default Re: 10 automakers sued over keyless ignition not switching engine off

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1100D View Post
And, my Basic Mahindra gets into a hysteria each time it fails to see its own stepney anywhere near it.
I couldn't get that..really?
kiku007 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th August 2015, 10:41   #13
Senior - BHPian
 
1100D's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Calcutta
Posts: 4,179
Thanked: 2,359 Times
Default Re: 10 automakers sued over keyless ignition not switching engine off

Quote:
Originally Posted by kiku007 View Post
I couldn't get that..really?
I have a scorpio with the Tyretronics system which has sensors on all 5 tyres. If any of the tyres are removed from the vehicle, or is out of range, while the vehicle is being used, it flashes constants warning on the IP (Instrument Panel).
1100D is offline   (3) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 28th August 2015, 11:15   #14
BHPian
 
Jeeper1941's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Adelaide
Posts: 229
Thanked: 353 Times
Default Re: 10 automakers sued over keyless ignition not switching engine off

Ah, the good old US of A, where apparently, personal responsibility doesn't exist anymore.

The people who filed this suit are obviously too moronic to be able to be trusted to be in control of a motor vehicle.
Jeeper1941 is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 28th August 2015, 12:44   #15
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: EU - Nordic
Posts: 1,563
Thanked: 953 Times
Default Re: 10 automakers sued over keyless ignition not switching engine off

Quote:
Originally Posted by Holyghost View Post
Millions of people with manual keys do not have issues when engine switches off while removing the key. Then why is keyless cars have to be different?
I could ask the same question in reverse. With manual keys, the driver switches off the car himself and then takes the key out of the vehicle. Why should cars with keyless entry and start system be any different?

That said, I think there is a need to have greater visual/audible warning to drivers when the key is not in the car. Most cars flash a warning in MID when the key is removed from the car without switching it off, but what use is a warning in MID if the driver is not in his seat?
StarrySky is offline   (2) Thanks Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Radiator Fan keeps running, even after the ignition is off! newcoolgadgets Technical Stuff 47 5th November 2016 22:24
Punto music system (not stock) not switching off after switching off engine!! praz Technical Stuff 17 9th March 2011 09:55
Mahindra & Mahindra is sued by Bannon automotive LLC over Reva gshanky The International Automotive Scene 3 29th December 2010 00:47
Why diesel engines are revved before switching ignition off? DCEite Technical Stuff 57 7th May 2008 00:53
Toyota-GM plant sued over defect reports dadu The International Automotive Scene 6 22nd November 2007 15:51


All times are GMT +5.5. The time now is 08:45.

Copyright 2000 - 2017, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks