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Old 23rd September 2015, 09:37   #136
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

VW and co have been caught with their pants down. I wonder how widespread is this practice. I will be surprised if they are the only ones fudging the tests.
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Old 23rd September 2015, 09:51   #137
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

This might have an effect in India. To offset the high cost all the legal / recall and fix procedures are going to cost VW in North America, they will decide to have higher profit margins per car sold and serviced else where in the world.

This might translate to higher service and spare parts costs down the road for indian VW users. I would be very worried about this if I were the owner of Indian VW.

This effect might not reflect immediately, but slowly and surely this will be present.
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Old 23rd September 2015, 09:55   #138
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

India likely to go for a probe.

Indian government officials revealed that they are closely following the case and are mulling a response to the rapidly unfolding global scandal.
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Old 23rd September 2015, 10:21   #139
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Please read with a light heart

I really like VWs attitude.
- Try to arm twist Suzuki into selling a share of their biggest market, in return, for some scooter of a car engine
- Roll out hi-tech but unreliable gearboxes as recurring interest components. Governments had to step in, in many countries where they honored warranty. But even then, ground realities can be different
- Buy Lamborghini, add ROI as the top three things to do
- Lobby and ban (from races and competitions) the Nissan GTR
- Money money money scheme called MQB - is that a rapid or a Jetta? Or a Passat? Let's check the side and rear. What?! A4 is a front wheel drive? Does it also have a torsion beam setup at the rear?
- At any point, our customers should work for our cars and not the other way round
- Their entry to India started with a kickback deal gone bad - for choosing the state to setup their factory
- I used to think that their dealers in India (skoda included) were the problem. But it's within. They were just making friends. But I hope their friends are limited or dwindling.

Society has recognized this community and created a utopia for these people. It's called Jail. The five star ones are in Central America. I can't accept that an individual's conscience is unable to judge the right and wrong. It's always crystal clear. But what we choose to do and justify to ourselves, adds the grey.

German engineering. They definitely meant engineering outcomes, and I misunderstood it. My bad.

Good day people.
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Old 23rd September 2015, 10:41   #140
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

A very detailed article on why Volkswagen had to cheat.

a long but fascinating read.
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Old 23rd September 2015, 10:57   #141
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

Originally Posted by tbppjpr View Post

The current issue may affect VAG's presence in US for short term at most, I doubt this is going to affect their global presence in long term.
There won’t be a quick fix, and the scrutiny on the company and the rest of the auto industry will be unbelievable. From investors and the press to governments and regulatory bodies, everything is going to be torn apart, every claim questioned.

VAG will need to spend years getting back into the public’s good graces. If the same software is found in petrol-cars and it comes out that they fudged these as well, then it's curtains. I don't think even a massive company like VAG can come back from such an event. Imagine the amount of money and time they'd have to spend to re-certify all of their engines for sale in their major markets. Vast cash reserves only go so far when they can't make new car sales.

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Old 23rd September 2015, 10:59   #142
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

This is not fair business! In the name of business and making money, these corporates can go to any limits!

I regret owning a VW

Last edited by joe1980 : 23rd September 2015 at 11:00.
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Old 23rd September 2015, 11:03   #143
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

I sometimes feel what is it with these super jumbo automobile MNC's. They are white collared thieves or what? I see no difference between them and a roadside mechanic doing some jugaad to fix a problem which is never fixed but just made to look like its fixed. In India the first example that comes to mind in recent times is Triumph motorcycles' detuned BHP fiasco for their motorcycles sold in India. I mean I am baffled at the audacity of these huge automobile companies whose profits run into millions of dollars cheating the very customers who pay their hard earned money to buy their products which keeps the very company afloat. Had the EPA not uncovered this VW debacle the company would be happily selling their Jugaad cars to the world over.

The data on this debacle from what I have read so far has made me rethink of the meaning of "Business Ethics" that these companies follow. The "trick" VW used to dupe the EPA system will become a case study for making a mockery of business ethics and no regard for law of the land. Being a German car enthusiast myself I am ashamed.

Last edited by navin_v8 : 23rd September 2015 at 11:06.
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Old 23rd September 2015, 11:13   #144
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

Automotive industry is so fiercely competitive and i still wonder why neither the supplier nor the competitor blew the whistle for this long standing crime. Wonder who is supplying the common rail.

some questions unanswered -

Who in VW knew about this?
When did they know about this?
Why did they do it?
How could they think they wouldn’t get caught?
How long did they think this would go on?
Why didn’t one of the competitors, who buy cars to endlessly study them, X-ray them, take them apart and test them six ways to Sunday, blow the whistle in the supposedly “ruthless” automotive business?

Who agreed to supply this component and build them for them?

VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test-volkswagen_logo_bleeding_by_greenbob1986.jpg
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Old 23rd September 2015, 11:20   #145
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

Dunno if you'll saw the video statement of the Head of Corporate Business Communications of VW, its here.

Apparently, an estimated quantification of how much their cars have illegally emitted into the atmosphere, indicates it could be as high as ~9,48,691 tonnes !

Thats the equivalent emissions of UK's combined emissions of ALL power stations, vehicles, industry & agriculture!

P.S. : Decided not to make fun of the brand here because IMO the seriousness of their deeds surpasses that.

Gotta respect US administration though. Our Govt couldn't penalise a noodle maker!
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Old 23rd September 2015, 11:21   #146
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

Originally Posted by deetjohn View Post
What baffles me though is that this took more than 6 years to be found. Manufacturers often examine cars from competition using a very fine comb. And to think that none of them could find this 'defeat device' on any of the VW TDIs is a little mysterious. I honestly hope for the sake of Diesel passenger cars that there are no other manufacturers involved in this so called Dieselgate.
It shows that more companies probably do this, so they all collectively keep quiet about it. More than anything else, this spells the end of the clean-diesel myth.

I saw a BBC news snippet yesterday, related to this issue, where a tester said on average all cars from all makes exceed the mandated emission norms by four times.

Originally Posted by B747 View Post
According to above news even petrol cars could be affected.
As the real emission is 40 times more than permissible limit in US, does this mean even in India these cars will fail real world test (as 40x more) ? Also not to forget what all else could be false claims, like power, mileage, engine/DSG life etc?
I hope not, as a VW owner, my heart is sinking.

Originally Posted by tbppjpr View Post
Mostly the diesel cars in US use a mixture called 'AdBlue' in the tank to reduce emissions whereas VW tried to prove that their engines are such cleaner that they don't even need to mix anything else in the tank to pass the norms. But norms and test standards were far stricter than they thought so they chose to apply some software tricks to get away from the tests whereas they new the real world usage results will be far different.
The fact that the engine can run clean without AdBlue is actually true, if the pollution control tech works all the time. The lie is that is doesn't for the sake of performance.

Originally Posted by tbppjpr View Post
Look at how GM, Ford, Honda, Toyota etc have got away with many other issues where some of the issues were rather direct life threatening where vehicles were affected with faulty airbags some were prone to fire etc. Nobody bothered about them and moved on then this is a concern about environment which is least of priority for the whole world. People are just trying to pretend to be environmentalists or else cars and other machineries running on fossil fuel should have completely been banned by now considering how seriously the environment has been affected.
i was thinking about this and there is a core difference between the names you mentioned and VW. In all those cases there was a grey area - was it a systemic, company-wide failure? The companies were successfully able to defend themselves and narrow it down to a few decision makers, dealers or suppliers. But in VW's case, it has admitted to a company-wide, global fraud. They lied knowingly to everyone. This is worse than I initially thought.

Here's a story that tallies up the potential costs:

Last edited by StarScream : 23rd September 2015 at 11:34.
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Old 23rd September 2015, 11:27   #147
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

Appalling to say it one word! When I talked to a friend of mine who works for another major German manufacturer here in India, he was not perturbed at all. Although he agrees VW is in deep trouble, he mentioned that such practices are not entirely new. Now I did not question him further nor do I want to post it here but it seems like a widespread malpractice.

This link talks about the VW EA 189 engine which is one of offending engines - http://www.vox.com/2015/9/21/9365667...passenger-cars

Looks like we have a variant of this engine sold in India too - http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...ml#post2903144 (VW considering Compact Sedan. New 1.5 Diesel codenamed EA189)

Since VW has confirmed that every EA 189 engine sold worldwide, has this "defeat" device fitted, does that mean it is there on Indian ones too? I'm not aware if these cheat codes are actually required to comply with Indian Emission Testing laws. Someone in the know please enlighten.

Will be interesting to see the fallout of this and VW's response. I expect a hit to their operations for 2-3 years and then back to business as usual. Although they may take longer to get back to current levels in the US. Asian markets and European might become more crucial to VW. Actually, what is their split in terms of sales across geographies currently?
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Old 23rd September 2015, 11:58   #148
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Default VW's emission fraud: situation goes from bad to worse

Days after Volkswagen's emission fraud was revealed in the United States, the situation has gone from bad to worse.

In a recent development, Volkswagen has announced that approximately 11 million vehicles were fitted with the 'defeat device' to dodge emission norms. A maximum penalty of $37,500 for each recalled vehicle can be levied on the German manufacturer. The company has already set aside a sum of 6.5 billion euros or $ 7.3 billion for legal provisions.

The company has lost 23 billion euros in market value due to a 35% fall in share prices in 2 days. Things don't seem any good for the German auto giant.

Dr. Martin Winterkorn, VAG CEO, publicly apologized for the fraud and assured that the company is probing into the matter and will soon take appropriate steps to counter its wrong-doings. With VW's reputation tarnished and customer trust completely shaken, the road ahead doesn't seem any smooth for the 68-year old. There are rumours that he might be replaced soon. However, VW officials have rubbished any such claims.

Germany, France, Italy and South Korea have already ordered scrutiny of Volkswagen vehicles. The EU commission and India among other countries are following the matter closely but haven't announced an investigation just yet.

Source: Bloomberg

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Old 23rd September 2015, 12:07   #149
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Is this also likely to affect Skoda as well? They are not present in the USA but what about all other regions? Interesting if Skoda chose to or not to 'install' or 'activate' the (default?) defeat device code.

Skoda UK is definitely affected else they would not repost the VW statement on the Skoda UK website: http://www.skoda.co.uk/news/volkswag...g-information/


The report in full at the link above and summary below (highlights mine):
Fact Sheet: Light-duty diesel in-use tests

In 2013, the ICCT contracted with the Center for Alternative Fuels, Engines and Emissions at West Virginia University to conduct in-use emissions tests on three light-duty diesel vehicles: a Volkswagen Jetta, a VW Passat, and a BMW X5. The full results and analysis are available here.

Key information
•The testing was done using a portable emissions measurement system (PEMS), which provides a continuous stream of vehicle data signals including emission rates, velocity, acceleration, road gradient and exhaust temperature. PEMS data was gathered over a variety of pre-defined test routes exhibiting diverse driving conditions pertinent to major United States population centers located in California. The city-driving route selected was the “Los Angeles Route Four” loop (LA4), which was ultimately used in developing the original FTP vehicle certification cycle [11], with some minor modifications at locations where the traffic pattern or roads have changed since the FTP’s development.

•Additionally, the Passat was operated over an extended distance of nearly 2,500 miles predominantly composed of highway driving conditions between California and Washington State.

•The three test vehicles were certified to US-EPA Tier2-Bin5 and California LEV-II ULEV emissions limits and were equipped with NOx after-treatment technologies: the Jetta was tested with a lean-NOx trap (LNT), the Passat with a urea-based selective catalytic reduction (SCR) system, and the BMW X5 with an SCR system. All three test vehicles were thoroughly checked for possible engine or after-treatment malfunction codes using an on-board diagnostics (OBD) scanning tool, with none of them showing any fault code or other anomalies. No reduction in catalytic activity due to aging was expected, as the total mileage was relatively low (< 15,000 miles) for all test vehicles.
•The two VW vehicles were tested over the FTP-75 certification cycle at California Air Resources Board’s (CARB) El Monte vehicle certification test facility, and their NOx emissions were below the US-EPA Tier2-Bin5 standard.

Real-world NOx emissions, as reported by the PEMS, were found to exceed the US-EPA Tier2-Bin5 (at full useful life) standard by a factor of 15 to 35 for the Jetta, and by a factor of 5 to 20 for the Passat, over five pre-defined routes categorized based on their predominant driving conditions (highway, urban/suburban, and rural-up/downhill). The BMW was generally at or below the standard and only exceeded the standard during rural uphill operating conditions.
•The VW vehicles met the emission standard on FTP-chassis dynamometer tests, which include cold-start NOx emissions. But the on-road emissions testing was performed with the engine and after-treatment in warmed-up condition (i.e. warm/hot start), and the VW vehicle emissions were 5 to 35 times the standards during on-road testing, which did not include cold-start NOx emissions. This inconsistency was a major factor in ICCT's decision to contact CARB and EPA about our test results.
•In general, carbon monoxide (CO) and total hydrocarbon (THC) emissions were observed to be well below the U.S. regulatory levels for all three test vehicles. Particulate number (PN) emissions, inferred from particle sensor (PPS) measurements, were observed below the Euro 5b/b+ standard except during vehicle operation exhibiting DPF regeneration events.

•This project was part of a larger meta-analysis of PEMS data from EU (Euro 6) and US (Tier 2 Bin 5/ULEV II) diesel passenger cars. (For details on this project, see http://www.theicct.org/real-world-ex...rn-diesel-cars) This broader study analyzed the on-road emissions performance of fifteen new diesel passenger cars, twelve certified to the Euro 6 standard and three to the US Tier 2 Bin 5 standard (which is more stringent than Euro 6). Emissions were measured over 97 trips, totaling more than 140 hours of operation and 6,400 kilometers driven. On average, real-world NOx emissions from the tested vehicles were about seven times higher than the limits set by the Euro 6 standard. In most cases the exceedances found could not be attributed to “extreme” or “untypical” driving. Instead, they were due to transient increases in engine load typical of everyday driving (e.g., going up a slight incline), or to normal regeneration events in the diesel exhaust aftertreatment systems.

•Performance differences among the vehicles tested indicate that the technologies for real-world clean diesels already exist. Some of the tested vehicles, such as the BMW X5, had average emissions below Euro 6 emission limits, suggesting that the technologies to achieve that level of performance are available.

Last edited by ampere : 23rd September 2015 at 13:30. Reason: Merged back to back posts
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Old 23rd September 2015, 13:15   #150
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

Originally Posted by itwasntme View Post
Is this also likely to affect Skoda as well?
I second your thought. Skoda group and Seat Group might also face the same. But to also note these are not popular brands in US as VW is.

So coming to the point of losses VW is going to suffer, is like just nit picking a hair or two from someone's head full of hair.

Secondly the only thing that will get tarnished is their Image, it will no longer be that widely accepted.

I read 2.0L model affected only, so is it that VW also fitted the device in Indian models with same engine spec?

I have seen the Polo 1.2TDI and Vento 1.6 TDI engines leave out huge amount of black smokes.Does that by any means mean, VW has been neglecting norms in India as its not strictly considered.?
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