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Old 23rd September 2015, 14:18   #151
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

Another great example of wrong judgement affecting the good folks within the firm. I know a lot of genuine and great engineers who have worked on parking sensors, hill climb, motion position etc. sensors for VW. They were the first to conceptualize, design, prototype and deliver it for VW. It must hurt them more than probably the people driving those cars i reckon.
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Old 23rd September 2015, 14:20   #152
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1) Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems that there is no solution for meeting the emission standards as of now (otherwise they would have incorporated them).
2) Are they still being allowed to sell theirs affected cars in India?
3) All things remaining as they are, will they be marking down their offerings? ;-) just wondering....
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Old 23rd September 2015, 14:36   #153
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

VW employs close to 600k people, a majority of whom are from EU. Add the people employed by their vendors & suppliers and this will be a huge number. Given the fledgling European economy, I think the German/ EU authorities might lobby on behalf of VW to keep the penalties low be it EPA imposed, criminal penalties levied by DoJ or any civil lawsuits. There are already talks of a "complex formula" that reduces the per vehicle liability incase the number of offending vehicles are more than specific thresholds. Even these fines would be payable over several years & would likely be tax deductible. At some level, I think key VW decision makers involved should be identified & punished rather than the entire company which negatively impacts workers, suppliers & shareholders.

Real costs would be: (1) Huge inventory pile-up due to halt in sales; (2) costs of fixing upto 11 million vehicles (unlikely this will ever happen); & above all (3) Reputation which in my view will take years to rebuild as the basic assertion of their claimed technological expertise has been busted.

A quick glance at VW's Jun/2015 balance sheet shows cash & cash equivalents of ~28billion which would be enough to cover for the fines & operational losses. In my view VW would definitely survive, however, their venerable aura tattered.
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Old 23rd September 2015, 16:04   #154
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

Looks like a repeat, a very old paper on "Cycle Beating" :

CycleBeating.PDF

The first paragraph on page 5 talks of truck manufacturers ( 2 out of 6 are named ) using clever ECUs to get around emission norms.
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Old 23rd September 2015, 16:07   #155
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

Another point is the ECU's are probably made by Siemens, Delphi or Bosch? Are they involved in this as well?

Last edited by navin : 24th September 2015 at 11:54. Reason: Delphi spelling error
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Old 23rd September 2015, 16:08   #156
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

Being a VW owner my trust in brand is shaken but not shattered. The right thing to do by current CEO would be to come out clean of this mess by doing following:
1. Who came up with idea of cheat mode?
2. Who gave the go ahead for it?
3. Which all cars are affected, even petrol?

4. Lastly, how do they plan to rectify this issue?

Customer don't judge you when the things are good but when there is a problem or a trouble.

VW makes the best cars in India and they need to do their level best to restore the trust.
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Old 23rd September 2015, 16:24   #157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowardly Lion View Post
1) Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems that there is no solution for meeting the emission standards as of now (otherwise they would have incorporated them).
2) Are they still being allowed to sell theirs affected cars in India?
3) All things remaining as they are, will they be marking down their offerings? ;-) just wondering....
I saw what you just did there! I'll be waiting and watching too! Jokes apart the Germans must pull up their socks and go back to the drawing board. Designing cleaner technology is not beyond them.
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Old 23rd September 2015, 16:32   #158
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vid6639 View Post
Another point is the ECU's are probably made by Siemens, Delhi or Bosch? Are they involved in this as well?
That is a very valid question. Depends on what level of IP Bosch or Siemens owned in the ECU. If VW owned the complete firmware and Bosch and Siemens were to only manufacture the ECU and flash the firmware provided by VW, they may not have much of direct involvement - still they should be aware of these logics implemented in the firmware. On the other hand, if VW provided the product requirements and firmware was developed at Siemens/Bosch, they would know. Even in this case, they cannot be held responsible. If VW in their product definition mentioned under such and such steering input, speed and temperature conditions, provide this much fuel input, this much boost etc., Siemens or Bosch would just implement this logic in the firmware (as an embedded engineer, I would do the same, even if I don't understand the reason behind these conditions). The responsibility for defining such conditions still lie with VW.

Quote:
Originally Posted by el lobo 6061 View Post
Being a VW owner my trust in brand is shaken but not shattered. The right thing to do by current CEO would be to come out clean of this mess by doing following:
1. Who came up with idea of cheat mode?
2. Who gave the go ahead for it?
3. Which all cars are affected, even petrol?
4. Lastly, how do they plan to rectify this issue?

Customer don't judge you when the things are good but when there is a problem or a trouble.

VW makes the best cars in India and they need to do their level best to restore the trust.
Totally agree with you. I am in the same situation. My trust with the brand has been shaken as well, but I would still not write them off completely - so much that I still have not cancelled my Polo GT TSi order, and am hoping VW will set things right.

IMHO, if they take responsibility for their actions and rectify the situation, they should be definitely given a second chance. This is just my personal opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowardly Lion View Post
1) Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems that there is no solution for meeting the emission standards as of now (otherwise they would have incorporated them).
2) Are they still being allowed to sell theirs affected cars in India?
1. As another member tbppjpr pointed out here, there is a solution employed by other manufacturers to reduce emission in diesel cars. Just that VW has not used this.

2. As I have mentioned in an earlier post, Indian emission norms are 8 times less than the US norms. So, I dont think they will have any problem selling the cars here in India. However, I see some statements like the emission is 30 to 40 times worse than the maximum allowed limit in the US, in which case, theoretically, it would fail Indian norms as well.

Last edited by graaja : 23rd September 2015 at 16:42.
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Old 23rd September 2015, 16:50   #159
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

A cynical vulture wonders: Is now the time to buy some VW shares?

That would be betting on the group's ability to bounce back, even if it takes a few years. On the other hand, is it possible that it may have now destroyed its USA market beyond redemption in the foreseeable future?

For those who now seem to feel bad driving their VWs. even the petrol ones, I can't help wondering how bad they feel about sitting in front of MS Windows, drinking various fizzy drinks, and using a long, long list of products from companies with ruthless, if not also unscrupulous business ethics?

This is absolutely not, in any way, supporting, or making excuses for, any of those companies, including VW. And I'm all for corporate arrogance and disrespect getting tripped up sometimes.

Personally, as the owner of a petrol VW, whilst I do feel sad to see a brand that I have always respected and even desired shown up to be no better than many undesirables in the corporate world, I do not feel any different about my own car. Unless, of course, people start throwing stones at it!

I do feel for the poster, a few pages back, though, bemoaning the residual value of his VW in USA.

By the way, to add to the irony pile, I remember, years ago, VW opening a new plant in Europe, and proudly telling people that the fish pond in reception took its water from the factory's effluent. The mighty have indeed fallen.

Last edited by Thad E Ginathom : 23rd September 2015 at 17:00. Reason: Thought of most of the post after initial submit!
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Old 23rd September 2015, 17:30   #160
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

Read this:
"According to Volkswagen, vehicles sold in other countries with the 1.5L 4-cylinder TDI engine known as Type EA189 are also affected"
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volksw...ons_violations

Guys, is this the same engine in the facelifted Polo, Vento and Rapid??
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Old 23rd September 2015, 18:09   #161
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

We had plans of upgrading our hatch to the GT TDI and we dropped the idea and in the process of booking an i20. Hyundai is gonna make 'more' merry.

On a lighter note, this might how a VW would look without their 'intelligent device'

VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test-imag0111.jpg

(Pun intended. No offence meant to any current VW owners)
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Old 23rd September 2015, 18:41   #162
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

Quote:
Originally Posted by graaja View Post

In India, the NOx emission norm for passenger vehicles is 0.25g/km,
in Europe this is 0.060g/km, and
in US it is 0.05g/mi which is 0.031g/km.

US norms are twice strict as Europe and 8 times strict than India. So, at least for current owners of VW or Skoda diesel cars (including yours truly) there should not be any immediate concerns about recalls, government bans etc.
The report says that VW exceeded the limits by 15 to 40 times the allowed level for Nox. That means Nox levels went up to 0.465 to 1.24 g/km which is way higher than what's allowed even in India. Correct me, if I'm missing something here.
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Old 23rd September 2015, 19:05   #163
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

Anyone who has lived in USA knows that the common American person values the following 2 aspects-
(1) Life - each and every life is valued
(2) Integrity, Honesty, credibility

GM ignition scandal took many lives and GM was heavily fined, huge compensations were awarded, but GM still continued to retain GM name/brand.

Arthur Andersen had to shut down shop/rename after taking a huge reputation/credibility damage due to Enron fallout.

The reason I am listing these 2 examples are because of the reputation hit that VW would take in US due to this. Sensitivity to environment is increasing day by day, especially in developed countries so I do not think VW of America can comeback as VW of America.

Days after the Maggi scandal unfolded, not just the particular manufacturer but the industry in general went into downward spin. So just like people started to avoid all kinds of noodles immediately after Maggi ban, "diesel" could become a hated word, atleast in USA for now. Other manufacturers selling diesel cars in USA could take short term hit.

Why did it take so long to come out? Were other manufacturers silent because they were/are also fudging? We might never know due to the employment that car industry generates. Or maybe we might know it after all if US diligently pursues this (remember it was US which took on the mighty FIFA when just like our own IPL everyone knew how dirty FIFA was but nobody spoke out).

VW was quick to acknowledge the cheating only proves 2 things-
(1) This wasn't overnight shocker as we now know via the timeline - probably VW already has a response plan prepared
(2) Regulatory arm twisting is necessary for corporates to come clean (pun intended) - it's when the US regulators refused to certify 2016 vehicles that VW admitted to cheating. Now compare this with Maggi ban - Nestle never acknowledged and infact went to court. This just shows how much respect corporates have to regulators in India (I wouldn't be surprised given the level of corruption and manipulation that happens here).

I sincerely hope this scandal helps in contributing more research towards a more cleaner diesel engine and raise the level of awareness of even more people towards clean environment.
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Old 23rd September 2015, 19:06   #164
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Originally Posted by amalji View Post
The report says that VW exceeded the limits by 15 to 40 times the allowed level for Nox. That means Nox levels went up to 0.465 to 1.24 g/km which is way higher than what's allowed even in India. Correct me, if I'm missing something here.

You are correct. If there was 40x higher emission, that would be more than Indian norms as well. One unknown factor is if Indian test procedure covers worst case driving conditions as thoroughly as the US procedure. Till Indian authorities investigate and issue an official statement, nothing else to do other than keeping fingers crossed!
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Old 23rd September 2015, 19:28   #165
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

When the cycle is defined and laid down, it is pretty easy to detect it and adapt the calibration as required. End of the day it is a matter of ethics.

Spike
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