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Old 23rd September 2015, 19:43   #166
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

Couple of disjointed thoughts.
I feel the lawyers MUST HAVE signed off on this. Somewhere in the wording of laws there is a loophole. VW might come out of this with their reputation in tatters, but coffers relatively OK. Would be interesting to see if EPA and CARB rules are reworded now.

Competitors go through each others products with a fine tooth comb. I feel the other manufacturers (of small automotive diesel engines) must have known. So why the silence for such a long period. Oligarchy protecting each others skeletons? Considering that it is going to hurt German industry as much as VW themselves, wonder why they didn't force VW to take remedial action.

Would like to know how the original discoverers did their tests.

Gaming the system has always been around. Normally the big mature boys don't do it because they have too much too loose. How does VW see itself?

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Old 23rd September 2015, 20:53   #167
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

VW CEO Martin Winterkorn quits amidst the scandal.

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-34340997

Last edited by sdp1975 : 23rd September 2015 at 20:55.
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Old 23rd September 2015, 20:55   #168
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I cannot believe that this kind of thing happened without everyone who matters knowing about it. I agree with Sutripta that lawyers must have been on the table when theae decision must have been taken.
Reminds me of the infamous Ford's Pinto case. It must have come down to pure numbers and the fact that they have done what they have can only mean one thing - anticipated profits must have been more than anticipated payouts in case of a legal challenge.
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Old 23rd September 2015, 21:04   #169
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

Home I brought my Volkswagen to drive
Got a free ‘defeat device’, kicking and alive
Draped in spotless white and saddled in black
But ECM programmed with a crooked hack
Behold his majesty, cruising with supreme grace
Peccavi, Mother Earth, where do I hide my face?
My horse of battle, my horse of ballet
A Lipizzaner stallion, victim of foul play
What inspired this amazing rhyme?
Das Auto has committed a terrible crime!
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Old 23rd September 2015, 21:10   #170
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

Poor VW to be struck by a disaster. Competitors may lack ethics and take it as a positive to sell more cars of their brand. Wonder how much fudging is going around in the auto industry overall.
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Old 23rd September 2015, 21:11   #171
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

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Originally Posted by Vid6639 View Post
Another point is the ECU's are probably made by Siemens, Delhi or Bosch? Are they involved in this as well?
They were made by Bosch. And yes. Volkswagen are apparently trying to get them involved. But I doubt they would proceed beyond that considering the volume of business between VW and Bosch. I doubt VW would want to lose someone like Bosch. For VW, its now a phase of damage limitation more than shifting the blame.
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Old 23rd September 2015, 21:13   #172
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

This is not an unique incident. Something similar happened with the Heavy duty diesel market in 1998.

From http://transportpolicy.net/index.php...uty:_Emissions

"Consent Decrees - In October 1998, a court settlement was reached between EPA, Department of Justice, California ARB and engine manufacturers (Caterpillar, Cummins, Detroit Diesel, Volvo, Mack Trucks/Renault and Navistar) over the issue of high NOx emissions from heavy-duty diesel engines during certain driving modes. Since the early 1990’s, the manufacturers used engine control software that caused engines to switch to a more fuel efficient (but higher NOx) driving mode during steady highway cruising. EPA considered this engine control strategy an illegal “emission defeat device.”
Provisions of the Consent Decree included the following:
Civil penalties for engine manufacturers and requirements to allocate funds for pollution research
Upgrading existing engines to lower NOx emissions
SET (steady-state) with a limit equal to the FTP standard and NTE limits of 1.25 × FTP (with the exception of Navistar)
Meeting the 2004 emission standards by October 2002, 15 months ahead of time"
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Old 23rd September 2015, 21:22   #173
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

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Originally Posted by sdp1975 View Post
VW CEO Martin Winterkorn quits amidst the scandal.

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-34340997
I was expecting this. As per German standards, there is always some human(s) who is/are responsible for every crime/accident. So it was expected that the CEO or someone would need to own up to the crime.

If there is a pothole on the road and that causes an accident we blame the municipality, NHAI or someone organization that needs to maintain that road.

In Germany, its always that one person or set of people who are responsible and get fired or resign.

I don't know if this is the law, but its a practice for sure.
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Old 23rd September 2015, 21:24   #174
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

CEO's and senior management quitting in the wake of a large scandal or after presiding over a huge managerial callousness is a joke in my view. They reap the benefits (harvest millions) of the windfalls generated by such wrong doing and then resign feigning ignorance, displaying shock and claiming innocence. At the very least full fledged probes must be carried out on their tenors and decisions and they be subject to civil liabilities and even criminal liabilities if warranted in specific cases.

People who have the most to gain should also shoulder disproportionate responsibility. Merely cutting your losses and exiting should no longer cut it.

Anyways unlikely that an engineer in VW's design division decided to deploy the defeat device in 11 million cars without the knowledge of top management.
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Old 23rd September 2015, 21:45   #175
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sutripta View Post
Couple of disjointed thoughts.
I feel the lawyers MUST HAVE signed off on this. Somewhere in the wording of laws there is a loophole. VW might come out of this with their reputation in tatters, but coffers relatively OK. Would be interesting to see if EPA and CARB rules are reworded now.
I think, VW can get away with Zero fines. All they have to do is invoke the DMCA. This would make the entire "evidence" illegal, since it violated DMCA. Because evidence will be inadmissible, suddenly, zero fines.
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Old 23rd September 2015, 21:54   #176
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

The CEO of Volkswagen, Martin Winterkorn, has just stepped down with immediate effect. Also, he has completely denied any knowledge of malpractices during his tenure.

If the CEO himself had no idea, I am really interested to know who is behind the entire thing.

And I'm also going to respectfully disagree with other BHPians and say that this really won't affect their reputation all that much. Their stocks will recover soon enough and I honestly don't believe the public cares that much about emissions. Financial matters however is a whole different story.

Last edited by SS8939 : 23rd September 2015 at 21:59.
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Old 23rd September 2015, 22:04   #177
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

Volkswagen's Indian cars affected by the Dieselgate scandal too?

Since the company's Type EA 189 common-rail diesel engine family is used in a host of Indian offerings ranging from the Polo, the Vento and the Skoda Rapid, there might be a chance of these "made in India" cars to be affected by the emissions "cheat" as well.

Quote:
The engine in question here is Volkswagen’s Type EA 189 common-rail diesel engine family, which is used in a host of cars, across the Group’s brands including Audi, Skoda and Seat.

VW has clarified that new vehicles from the Group with EU 6 diesel engines, currently available in the European Union, comply with legal requirements and environmental standards but there is no assurance on its vehicles sold in India yet.

It is understood that VW’s Polo hatchback, Vento sedan and Skoda’s Rapid are powered by the 1.5-litre TDI diesel engine from the same EA 189 family, but spokespersons from VW India are unsure of the impact on Indian cars.

“The EA 189 engine is used in most of the diesel cars sold by the Group in India, but we cannot comment on whether Indian cars are affected by the software or not as we still are awaiting clarity from the Group,” a company source told Autocar Professional.

Reports also suggest that Indian authorities are evaluating the situation and may launch their own probe on the matter if necessary.
AutoCarPro
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Old 23rd September 2015, 22:05   #178
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

The scandal has started its trickle down effect in India with the auto component makers linked to VW losing stock value after the fiasco.

Quote:
After falling over 7.5 per cent on Monday, the share price of Motherson Sumi Systems plunged further by over 7 per cent on Tuesday. The share price of the company has been under pressure after the German automaker Volkswagen halted sales of many of its diesel power automobiles in the US, after EPA accused the company of rigging its vehicles to manipulate pollution data during vehicle testing.
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Quote:
Shares of Bosch had declined 4.56% in two sessions to settle at Rs 20,910.55 on 22 September 2015 from a recent high of Rs 21,911.55 on 18 September 2015.

Meanwhile, the S&P BSE Sensex was up 33.05 points or 0.13% at 25,684.89.

On BSE, so far 3,220 shares were traded in the counter as against average daily volume of 2,028 shares in the past one quarter.
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Also, more on the team whose research led to all this.

Quote:
Daniel Carder, an unassuming 45-year-old engineer with gray hair and blue jeans, appears an unlikely type to take down one of the world's most powerful companies.

But he and his small research team at West Virginia University may have done exactly that, with a $50,000 study which produced early evidence that Volkswagen AG was cheating on U.S. vehicle emissions tests, setting off a scandal that threatens the German automaker's leadership, reputation and finances.

"The testing we did kind of opened the can of worms," Carder says of his five-member engineering team and the research project that found much higher on-road diesel emission levels for VW vehicles than what U.S. regulators were seeing in tests.
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Last edited by batterylow : 23rd September 2015 at 22:34. Reason: Additional data
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Old 23rd September 2015, 22:48   #179
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

Quote:
Originally Posted by epuneet View Post
CEO's and senior management quitting in the wake of a large scandal or after presiding over a huge managerial callousness is a joke in my view. They reap the benefits (harvest millions) of the windfalls generated by such wrong doing and then resign feigning ignorance, displaying shock and claiming innocence.
Totally agree. Not to mention that they reap millions via their Exit / severance packages. It would be interesting to know how much Winterkorn will take home.
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Old 23rd September 2015, 22:56   #180
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

I certainly don't agree with the CEO's head rolling in this, but then, it's politics which I have little understanding of.

On a lighter note:
VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test-0b1vqywjvok8qdudtakpsuw1obwc.jpg
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