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Old 24th September 2015, 09:38   #196
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

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Originally Posted by avira_tk View Post
VAG has issued quite a few press releases, I didn't bother to read any, every news agency has milked this for all its worth.

There is a concept of statute of limitations, if the maid stole from your locker and no longer has the jewellery, bad luck. There was no theft here, remember VAG is the productive party, what is the connection between your jewellery and Volkswagen car emissions?

A test that doesn't stand up to any scrutiny should be scrapped, the emissions test was garbage if one company among a few others( yes, there are others, the stocks have tanked accordingly) managed to game it and the regulators did nothing about it. A board of medicine that has no one with knowledge of medicine shouldn't be handing out any certificates or question someone's skill.

Read up on that toxic dump story, no one is getting compensated there, the EPA officials responsible are going to pay with a board of enquiry and guaranteed pay hikes and pensions with CoLA factored in, firing a government employee is next to impossible, especially federal ones. The chemicals from that dumping will kill sooner than the NoX ever will, but lets not worry about facts when you have a good story. The government can do nothing about poisoned wells, maybe you should get a reality check on how the system operates or you have very different standards for accountability. That Delhi cop story has nothing to do with this story, stop giving off topic examples that I didn't mention and no, you wont get 18 billion in damages from the government even if you employ former presidential candidate John Edwards as your lawyer.
These are simple illustrations to support my point. There are about a dozen things wrong here in your argument. While there is a statute of limitations on prosecution, there isn't any on the return of stolen property. Taking this parallel to this case, EPA has every right to ask Volkswagen to fix the problem it has caused (which is all it has done so far). Going by your argument, are you suggesting that if I am Volkswagen owner, I don't have the right to get them to fix emissions on my car?

If you don't read articles (sounds like a Sarah Palin argument), how do you even know what is going on?

The argument that government agencies should be perfect makes no sense. They are populated by people like you and me. Just because they suck at what they do doesn't mean you suspend every action they take. Thats like saying, you got caught for speeding... you shouldn't ever drive (another "off-topic" example that you seem to so love).

And oh, by the way! You can sue the government (except the military in some cases) for monetary damages. If you do read about the EPA case you will find that EPA officials and contractors were clueless. AND... there are a handful of investigations underway to determine what happened. Give them time. As you say, it is difficult to get rid of a federal worker (do you know why BTW?).
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Old 24th September 2015, 09:44   #197
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

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Originally Posted by reignofchaos View Post
The issue is with the 2l diesel which has no adblue urea injection. The fact that it achieved this feat itself was taken with a sceptical mind by experts which caused them to probe the issue.
Then, were they fiddling with exhaust valve timing or doing some partial "EGR Delete"?

However I see many articles stating that its done in adBlue injection in 2L and not found in cars w/o that, really confusing

Last edited by ::CMS:: : 24th September 2015 at 09:49.
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Old 24th September 2015, 10:05   #198
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

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Originally Posted by amalji View Post
But, it turns out that 11,000,000 cars across the globe is affected. That means they wanted to keep their torque, PS, mileage, durability high by compromising on emission. Again, time will tell the full picture.
Time will tell of course, but again my point is that after doing what they were doing on 11 million cars, it isn't as if their engines dramatically outperformed those of the competition on either performance or fuel economy. Does that then mean that what they were doing is common practice?!
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Old 24th September 2015, 11:09   #199
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Default VW CEO Martin Winterkorn resigns!

Dr. Martin Winterkorn, Volkswagen AG CEO, publicly apologized for the emission fraud that was recently exposed in the USA. The company has faced a colossal set back ever since the expose, with matters worsened by the fact that the scandal was caught in the USA; a market where the brand has been working tirelessly to expand its reach. Reports of VW's CEO resigning were initially denied by the group's officials, but it has now been officially announced that Dr. Martin Winterkorn has in fact, resigned.

The VW chief's future was hanging in the balance recently as issues with former VW Chairman Ferdinand Piech had the Porsche and Piech families (that head Volkswagen AG) engaging in a battle involving Winterkorn's future. The feud ended with Ferdinand Pieche resigning. While issues within the group's management did have shareholders worried, the recent scam has left the company's reputation tarnished.

Winterkorn stated that he was shocked that this could have happened in the VW group and that the company needed a fresh start. His resignation may be seen as the company's way of showing investors and customers that VW is acting on the crisis, but that doesn't change the situation that Volkswagen has backed itself into. The German automaker stated that as many as 11 million cars worldwide contained the software used to cheat the emission tests, though it is not clear if the software has been used to deceive regulations in other markets.

A successor to Winterkorn hasn't been named yet, but likely candidates for the post include Porsche chief - Matthias Muller and Audi chief - Rupert Stadler.

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Source: BBC

Last edited by Tushar : 24th September 2015 at 11:12.
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Old 24th September 2015, 11:17   #200
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Default Re: VW CEO Martin Winterkorn resigns!

All the news articles I've read surrounding this fail to mention a certain someone who has the cojones and the experience to drag VW out of this muck - Ferdinand Piech.

Yes, he was ousted by Winterkorn and the board...

But for someone who has time and again been responsible for ground-breaking engineering projects such as The Porsche 917, The Bugatti Veyron or the VW XL1, IMO he's the man VW need to turn to.

Am keen to know what my fellow T-BHPians think about this prospect.

Cheers !

Sundar
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Old 24th September 2015, 11:20   #201
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

It's amusing to me that a CEO, and not just any CEO, Martin Winterkorn who is known to be someone who involves himself deeply in engineering & design of every model of car, pleads ignorance to this major software which changes the very way the car drives when it detects heavy acceleration without steering input. There is no way he didn't know about this, everyone knew it as well. Secondly I can't help but feel that the American laws are a bit manipulative to the convenience of the government, it could be that initially they gave an eye-wink to VW stating as long as the car "passes" on paper & then some higher-up in the federal division might've found out and started these legal proceedings. The fault has to be 2 sided.

Secondly VW is in big trouble, they can getaway with markets like China, India & even perhaps Europe due to their German heritage (read arrogance) but America is one country they do not want to mess with. That's why they have gone ahead & hired Kirkland & Ellis, the legal firm that handled the BP spill case. Either way this will take more than a few months to settle & I'd assume a few billion $ as well. I hope in future no company does this sort of thing to just prove better emissions on paper.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articl...ntrols-scandal
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Old 24th September 2015, 11:30   #202
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

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Originally Posted by im_srini View Post
Looks like a repeat, a very old paper on "Cycle Beating" :

Attachment 1418754

The first paragraph on page 5 talks of truck manufacturers ( 2 out of 6 are named ) using clever ECUs to get around emission norms.
This is enlightening, a 1998 paper discusses 'the phenomenon' what Volkswagon is doing for the past 7 years on their diesel cars. Seems, every manufacturer at some point would have done this to evade control agencies. This explains why no competitor ever complained on Volkswagon.
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Old 24th September 2015, 11:57   #203
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Default Re: VW CEO Martin Winterkorn resigns!

@ MevericK46

In my opinion, right now no one from outside will touch VW with a barge pole and thus an insider is best suited for taking up the challenge (I would not call it responsibility).

Piech is very reliable and an outstanding administrator, just that the recent tussle with Martin was not good and it is difficult to perceive that even if he is brought onboard - how comfortable he will feel with the board that ditched him.

None the less, it would be interesting to see how the stock market behaves upon him being inducted as the new leader of the group (should happen within coming week) and that will give confidence to the group.

The problems that he has to rectify:
- Class action suit and penalties
- Fix for the sold out cars (I think this would be largest global recall if happens)
- Managing greedy lawyers (since its in the US courts)
- Managing efficient group operations across other regions of the world
- Continue with R & D and new product line-up for the group
- Manage perception (at all levels) including employee iteration

I have spoken to a friend who is part of another auto giant; he hinted that there is a possibility for lobbying as none of the major players provide additional tail pipe emission reduction management techniques like AdBlue (essentially NOx) for small engines and if a large enquiry is carried out many diesel mill players will fall pray to the USEPA trap. Its just that VW is the first one.

According to him, yes it is a major setback, yet VW will not take penalties anytime soon and the plea bargain may go entirely tangential as compared to what it seems at present.

Another angle to the whole episode may come through the institutional investors in VW group and many of them are quite influential. Piech is a veteran in managing large investors for the group and he is surly going to work with them to stop / control erosion of the value of company.

Wait and watch.

Last edited by i74js : 24th September 2015 at 12:04.
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Old 24th September 2015, 12:28   #204
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

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Originally Posted by Sawyer View Post
I suspect things are more complicated than what we know.

And if someone like VW can't meet even Indian norms, then how come they can't do what people like Tata/Fiat and others in India can? VW is at least as good as the others in diesel emission tech, surely.
Remember the US demands the same specs for Diesel and petrol cars. One should expect and accept that pollutants for Diesel and Petrol will differ. I think BS-III (where most of India is) and even the 'relaxed' BS-IV should not be a problem. The more important thing is the INTENT.
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Old 24th September 2015, 12:32   #205
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

Quote:
Originally Posted by im_srini View Post
Looks like a repeat, a very old paper on "Cycle Beating" :

Attachment 1418754

The first paragraph on page 5 talks of truck manufacturers ( 2 out of 6 are named ) using clever ECUs to get around emission norms.
Wow... Wonderful find! This paper -- as far back as 1998 -- shows the precise methods available to cheat. Yet it took 17 years for this issue to explode. With such a responsive regulatory enforcement system, I wonder why millions of vehicle buyers are paying money for worthless equipment. Has anybody calculated the $ value of EV(N)A -- Economic/ Environmental Value (Not) Added?
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Old 24th September 2015, 13:04   #206
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

I guess as part of the fix, the new engine management software would add a check if external devices are connected to the tail pipe in order to turn on full emission control features.

Should we expect anything more?
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Old 24th September 2015, 13:13   #207
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sgiitk View Post
Remember the US demands the same specs for Diesel and petrol cars. One should expect and accept that pollutants for Diesel and Petrol will differ. I think BS-III (where most of India is) and even the 'relaxed' BS-IV should not be a problem. The more important thing is the INTENT.
Yes, that is what I thought first.

Then I read about how the emissions with the software defeated were much higher than Indian norms. Add to that the 11 million cars thing that suggests that this is more than just a US strategy.

That's why I am now not sure what exactly was the intent.

And leads to the thinking that if VW needed to do this, how come the other makes are able to manage their emissions globally? All are just as good as each other, broadly speaking. Or just as bad.

My thinking echoes that in the attached article:

http://auto.ndtv.com/news/the-wrath-...rivers-1220405

It isn't just about VW, it is about diesels in general - that is how I read the article. VW is just as capable as the rest, so all must be in the same boat. VW is just the one that got caught.

If so, this is a lot bigger than what it looks like even now.

Last edited by Gannu_1 : 24th September 2015 at 13:24. Reason: Back to back posts merged.
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Old 24th September 2015, 14:46   #208
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

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Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
I think, VW can get away with Zero fines. All they have to do is invoke the DMCA. This would make the entire "evidence" illegal, since it violated DMCA. Because evidence will be inadmissible, suddenly, zero fines.
Did they reverse engineer the software? I thought VW confessed when confronted with real world testing evidence. So DMCA won't apply.

Quote:
In May 2014, both California's air-pollution regulator and the EPA ordered Volkswagen to investigate and fix the problem, and the company claimed that it had done so. Once again, the cars performed well in testing, but real-world performance still didn't match up. At that point, EPA regulators really started grilling Volkswagen about the discrepancy, even threatening not to approve the company's 2016 line of clean diesel cars. VW finally cracked and admitted the existence of these defeat devices, which had been carefully hidden in the software code.
Source
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Old 24th September 2015, 15:07   #209
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Just happened to read in BBC that in 2014, in the US, regulators raised concerns about VW emissions levels, but these were dismissed by the company as "technical issues" and "unexpected" real-world conditions. This really shows the patronizing attitude of VW.

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Originally Posted by StarrySky View Post
I guess as part of the fix, the new engine management software would add a check if external devices are connected to the tail pipe in order to turn on full emission control features.
Just adding what i read from BBC about the modus operandi.

"EPA has said that the engines had computer software that could sense test scenarios by monitoring speed, engine operation, air pressure and even the position of the steering wheel.
When the cars were operating under controlled laboratory conditions - which typically involved putting them on a stationary test rig - the device appears to have put the vehicle into a sort of safety mode in which the engine ran below normal power and performance. Once on the road, the engines switched from this test mode."

Last edited by Gannu_1 : 24th September 2015 at 15:13. Reason: Back to back posts merged. Please edit your post within the 30 minute edit window to add/edit your posts.
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Old 24th September 2015, 15:54   #210
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

There's plenty of stuff floating around that suggests this wasn't really an unknown, so why wait years to raise a fuss? This doesn't seem as straightforward a case of 'we caught you cheating' as it's being made out.

Also, given how stringent emission norms are becoming with each incremental regulatory level, I wonder if VW is the only one indulging in these shenanigans to pass muster without spending too much money in meeting what could quite literally be impossible standards with oil-burners.

More skeletons in more closets? I suspect so.

Last edited by Chetan_Rao : 24th September 2015 at 15:55.
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