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Old 24th September 2015, 17:23   #211
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chetan_Rao View Post
More skeletons in more closets? I suspect so.
"Germany's transport minister says Volkswagen has admitted using the same fake emissions test in Europe as it used to falsify results in the US.
Alexander Dobrindt said it was not known how many of the 11 million vehicles affected were in Europe."

More to come, I am sure.

The one good thing about this is that it will shut up the Germans from their often pompous talk about German integrity and character.

Last edited by Sawyer : 24th September 2015 at 17:32.
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Old 24th September 2015, 17:34   #212
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

Seems a BMW X3 20d has failed emissions test in EU. Its emissions are 11 times more then the standard. It seems odd that BMW passed the more stringent US standard but failed in EU! Something isn't right here!

BMW X3 Emission Test.
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Old 24th September 2015, 18:20   #213
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

BMW Shares are down 7%
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Old 24th September 2015, 18:28   #214
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

Now this will compound VW's woes coming as it does from an unexpected quarter.
The German Transport Minister has said that VW has done it in Europe too.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/b...w/49091410.cms
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Old 24th September 2015, 18:55   #215
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

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Originally Posted by RavenAvi View Post
Volkswagen's Indian cars affected by the Dieselgate scandal too?
As per an article on Livemint about a day ago, the cars powered by the Volkswagen Group's engine(s) in India may not be adjudged due to a number of reasons, prominent among which are -
  • Penalizing a defaulting manufacturer is a State subject, as vehicle safety is a State subject.
  • States do not have any machinery of their own to detect such frauds.
It is quite commendable to see the EPA and California Board to act upon reports of the alleged fraud furnished by private agencies. Speaks volume of the prevailing attitude the Americans have for their environment.
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Old 24th September 2015, 19:11   #216
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chetan_Rao View Post
There's plenty of stuff floating around that suggests this wasn't really an unknown, so why wait years to raise a fuss? This doesn't seem as straightforward a case of 'we caught you cheating' as it's being made out.
Accusing someone of doing something wrong involves more than just exposing him to the world as soon as the malpractice comes to light. It involves closing down on all potential means of exit by carefully gathering evidence. And this involves time. And in this case, it involved informing VW USA that something was wrong and that they should rectify it. Take a look at the time line.

May 2014: West Virginia University publishes results of emission test of VW cars (I think it was a Jetta & Passat). It was a study that was commissioned by the International Council on Clean Transportation. It found out that the emission values were higher than it was claimed.

April 2014 to Sep 2014 - VW and California Air Resource Board/Environmental Protection Agency communicate back and forth and all the while, VW is adamant that this anomoly is because of some "technical issues" and "unexpected testing conditions".

Dec 2014/Jan 2015 - VW recall half a million vehicles to "address" this emission issue.

May 2015 - CARB/EPA do testing of these "recalled" cars, both lab tests and real time driving. The variation of the emission norms lie between 20x-40x for the Jetta and 15x-25x for the Passat. This is communicated to VW. But they are unable to provide a convincing response for this difference.

June 2015 - CARB/EPA make it clear that if VW does not explain satisfactorily, the origin of this difference, and eliminate them, then starting 2016, VW cannot sell their 2016 models.

September 2015 - VW admits using a defeat device that "successfully" detects whether the car is being driven in a test bench or in a real time condition.

So as you see, VW was given sufficient time to rectify their mistake. And their inability to correct what was wrong, coupled with the governments pressure to provide cleaner diesel cars, forced VW to cheat their way through the regulations. And this was by no means, a one step op.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chetan_Rao View Post
More skeletons in more closets? I suspect so.
Definitely. There could be more to this than just VW. With reports that the BMW X3 diesel has higher than normal emission norms, I suspect BMW might also be investigated. And if the big 2 are investigated, then the third, Daimler, would also be obviously. VW were plainly unlucky.

It has turned out to be a black day in the history of automobiles when OEMs twist and cheat their way around, all for a few green uncle bobs instead of spending a bit more and providing cleaner cars. The law is for everyone. And if the law instructs you to develop a cleaner car, then better abide by it and be honest about it. Just because you want to preserve your company's DNA by giving sportier and/or efficient cars, doesnt mean you do it at the cost of spoiling your envoronment. I would go a bit more further and say, VW (and others, if they are cheating). Karma is a B. It will catch up sooner or later.
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Old 24th September 2015, 19:46   #217
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VaidhiR View Post
Definitely. There could be more to this than just VW. With reports that the BMW X3 diesel has higher than normal emission norms, I suspect BMW might also be investigated. And if the big 2 are investigated, then the third, Daimler, would also be obviously. VW were plainly unlucky.
Can you please share the source of this information? What I remember reading is that along with the VWs, BMW was also tested. BMW's emissions were at par or less than the permissible limits.
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Old 24th September 2015, 20:04   #218
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

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Originally Posted by RoadSurfer View Post
Can you please share the source of this information? What I remember reading is that along with the VWs, BMW was also tested. BMW's emissions were at par or less than the permissible limits.
Source #1
======
Quote:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articl...eeded-eu-limit

BMW AG said it doesn’t cheat on emissions tests, responding to a report in German magazine Autobild that the X3 sport utility vehicle exceeded the European limit for air pollution.

The stock fell as much as 9.7 percent, the most in more than four years, on concerns that the luxury-car maker would be enmeshed in the diesel-emissions scandal that led to the resignation of Volkswagen AG’s chief executive officer on Wednesday.

A four-wheel-drive variant of the BMW SUV had emissions more than 11 times the European limit when road-tested by the International Council on Clean Transportation, the same group whose tipoff led U.S. regulators to investigate a gap between the emissions VW and Audi diesel-powered cars in the testing lab and on the road, Autobild said.

“The BMW Group does not manipulate or rig any emissions tests,” the Munich-based company said in a statement in response to the report. “We observe the legal requirements in each country.”

BMW said it’s not familiar with that road test and that there’s no system in its cars that responds differently to tests than it would operate on the road. Volkswagen has admitted to installing software designed to circumvent regulations by turning on full emissions controls only when the car detects it’s being tested.

Two other studies by ICCT showed that BMW’s X5 SUV and 13 other BMW vehicles tested comply with legal requirements on emissions of lung-irritating nitrogen oxides, BMW said.

BMW fell to as low as 72.05 euros in the sharpest intraday decline since August 2011, and was trading down 6.8 percent at 74.40 euros at 2:20 p.m. in Frankfurt. Shares of other carmakers also declined. Daimler AG dropped as much as 5.8 percent. Volkswagen, which has lost more than 20 billion euros ($22.5 billion) in market value this week, rose as much as 7.9 percent and was up 1.6 percent.

“There’s no suggestion BMW has done anything illegal,” said Juergen Pieper, a Frankfurt-based analyst with Bankhaus Metzler. “However, there are concerns for the long-term damage on the business with diesel cars.”

Auto sales of the BMW namesake brand with diesel engines last year made up about 38 percent of total deliveries, roughly in line with diesel-car sales at other manufacturers, the company said.

Starting in mid-2017, new cars in Europe will need to pass tougher road tests than the laboratory review used today to measure emissions. Germany wants to speed up that timeline, Environment Minister Barbara Hendricks said.

The European Union currently allows manufacturers to optimize results with tactics such as stripping the car of excess weight or removing the air conditioner, according to Tuev Sued, a German company that performs tests for carmakers. Such strategies have contributed to a widening gap between reported results for diesels and the pollution that really comes out of their tailpipes, according to the European Commission, the regulatory arm of the EU.

Emissions measured in road tests of 15 new diesel cars were an average of about seven times higher than European limits, according to a study ICCT published last October.
Source #2
======

Quote:
http://www.thelocal.de/20150924/bmw-...-limits-by-x11

Update: German top-of-the-range carmaker BMW on Thursday denied suggestions in a newspaper report that it might have cheated in pollution tests on its diesel cars, as rival group VW has admitted to doing.

"The BMW group does not manipulate or rig any emissions tests. We observe the legal requirements in each country and adhere to all local testing requirements," it said in a statement after a report in the weekly Auto Bild claimed that emissions from one of its diesel cars exceeded European Union norms 11 times.

Bild Auto reported on Thursday that some diesel cars of high-end automaker BMW produce dangerous gases that exceed EU anti-pollution limits by up to 11 times.

The claim came as Germany's powerful car industry was reeling over revelations that auto giant Volkswagen had installed software in up to 11 million cars that could cheat pollution tests.

"Volkswagen is not the only carmaker whose cars produce high levels of nitrogen oxide," said the magazine, accusing certain vehicles of the BMW group of the same.

It quoted road tests carried out by the International Council on Clean Transportation (ICCT) which found that BMW's X3 xDrive equipped with 20d diesel motors produce gas emissions that are 11 times higher than European limits.

"All these data show that the problem is not specific to VW," Peter Mock from ICCT was quoted as saying.

The ICCT had been at the origin of the stunning revelations of cheating by Volkswagen, which went public last Friday when the United States announced a probe.

Amid investor jitters over the widening VW scandal, the report immediately sent BMW shares down by almost 10 percent, to an intraday low of 72.05 euros in late morning trade.
BMW have obviously denied the claims. But they are still being investigated.

Also, As an update, Winterkorn is eligible for a €60 million payoff because he "resigned" and wasnt "sacked".

Last edited by Technocrat : 24th September 2015 at 21:16. Reason: edited for better readability, thanks
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Old 24th September 2015, 20:20   #219
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

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Originally Posted by VaidhiR View Post
Accusing someone of doing something wrong involves more than just exposing him to the world as soon as the malpractice comes to light..........
Definitely not a good idea to jump the gun based solely on circumstantial evidence, agreed, but the timeline seems much wider than the actual action sequence from your post. Better late than never though. We'll know more as this unfolds further.

I was thinking more on the lines this doesn't seem to have come as a 'shocker' to most in the industry itself, looking at the absolute lack of reaction from that quarter. One would think competitors would take any chance to get a leg up on competition, esp. when an industry leader has messed up significantly.

I'm speculating of course, but it does seem like there will be more to this saga, and beyond the VW group. Intriguing, to say the least.

Last edited by Chetan_Rao : 24th September 2015 at 20:22.
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Old 24th September 2015, 20:43   #220
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

Lets think this way. The root cause is the kind of fuel - Diesel. Given the reported failure of VW engines at US and now one of the BMW engine in EU and possible forthcoming violations of other diesel engines of other manufacturers, we could draw the picture that the technological advances of any diesel engine / diesel auto manufacturer particularly, today seems to be unable to meet the stringent emission guidelines of US and EU. And if manufacturers cannot meet today's guidelines, then they probably cannot meet future guidelines and have to sacrifice on performance. And thus, in competition with gasoline, benzin powered or electric vehicles like Tesla, diesel cars may not be a prospective buy in the future, in US and perhaps later, in the EU market as well.
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Old 24th September 2015, 20:57   #221
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Thank you VaidhiR for the information. God knows what this Dieselgate saga has in store for diesel engines and the whole auto industry in general? Diesel was never a favoured auto fuel in US, France has time and again showed its intentions to ban diesel cars, other European nations may follow slowly. Maybe time has finally arrived to move ahead from the IC engines!
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Old 24th September 2015, 21:00   #222
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

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Originally Posted by Sawyer View Post
For something that clearly isn't the act of just one rogue individual in VW, the CEO deserves to go. Not knowing that something like this is happening in your company is almost as grave a crime as knowing it and allowing it to happen. An ignorant CEO is culpable of allowing himself to be ignorant.
Yes, if the CEO doesn't know what is happening in the company, then he is unfit to be a CEO.
Considering that this issue was brought to VW's notice in May 2014, how can the CEO claim he was was ignorant?
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Originally Posted by pgsagar View Post
Thirteen years ago they came to my town to set up VW car factory. Countess visits and a scandal later they withdrew and parked themselves in Pune. A senior official from VW, Mr. Schuster and a local politician turned the whole thing into a real estate scam around that time. Like most things in our country the investigation into this case got buried under the sands of time and is forgotten. There was even a call locally at that time not to buy VW cars as a mark of protest. But thanks to short memory of my town-folk, VW cars did sell in good numbers.
There is a thread on TBHP. Here it is - http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...hta-wahan.html (Rs.11 Crore Fraud in the name of VW alias Vashishta Wahan)
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Old 24th September 2015, 21:01   #223
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

I am sure some of the EPA related agencies and those carbon-credit conmen are all smacking their lips in anticipation of the windfall coming their way. I wonder what the results would be if the American trio have done the same for their diesel vehicles, especially, the trucks.
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Old 24th September 2015, 21:03   #224
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

Harmful effects of NOx: http://www.hussgroup.com/cdc-liquid/...center/NOx.php

So, is this (Jetta/ Passat smoke) say, worse than the exhaust from the trucks and buses plying on our roads? Or not?
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Old 24th September 2015, 21:04   #225
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

Some more developments - Indian Government has asked ARAI to check if VW manipulated emission tests in India:
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/...w/49093576.cms

VW USA CEO and the R&D chiefs of Audi and Porsche fired as well:
The research and development chiefs of Audi and Porsche, Ulrich Hackenberg and Wolfgang Hatz, will be removed by the supervisory board, as will VW's top executive in the United States, Michael Horn, the senior source told Reuters.

Hackenberg and Hatz had both held senior posts at VW in development, including of engines, before they switched to Audi and Porsche. They are among VW's highest-ranking engineers.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/...w/49091791.cms
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